A Britain of Panthers and Lions: House of Oldenburg Britain

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by VVD0D95, Mar 4, 2018.

Loading...
  1. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    He is indeed, and I can see him and Louis looking to improve the capacity for ships ttl. And Oh interesting I'll keep a note of that
     
  2. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Duc d'Artois and Duc de Provence (though elevation of these ancient counties to Dukedoms does not sit right for me, Louis XV OTL used county titles for tradition sake) will likely not get appanages proper - but get Duchy of Aumale (and probably some counties that King may decide to extort from Duc de Maine as well) and Duchies of Angoulene and Alencone respectively through their marriages to Mlle de Maine and Mlle de Berry.
     
  3. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Interesting, would you recommend keeping them as COunties?
     
  4. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Yes. It were historical name of region. Just as Toulouse and Dreux never were Duchies. If you want Ducal styles, I'd recommend using Normandy and Aquitanie instead - they at least were Duchies OTL and TTL have no perceived bad luck of bearers dying early attached to them.
     
  5. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ahh okay will make the amendments as necessary :)
     
  6. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Speaking of County of Dreux, that and Aumale would likely be extorted from Maine via his daugher marriage (or Eu in addition to Aumale instead of Dreux?).
     
  7. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Hmm his daughter was marrying Artois no?
     
  8. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Yes. As a way to both bring annoying Royal half-uncle in line and to provide Royal brother (Artois) with proper income. I'm only thinking what exactly should be included in this "proper income" minus Duchy of Aumale. Candidates are Counties of Dreux and of Eu.
     
  9. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Hmm Dreux and Eu both would make sense no?
     
  10. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    I don't think Louis XVI would be THAT cruel to his half-uncle as to deprive him of BOTH counties he owns:)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bourbon-Maine
    By 1720 Maine owned Duchy of Aumale, Sovereign Principality of Dombes, and two counties - Dreux and Eu.
    Eu and Aumale would make the most sense to be seized as dowry, IMO.
     
  11. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    EU and Aumale it is then :) With Artois getting Normandy as a DUkedom instead
     
  12. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Yes. Duke of Normandy as style - and two Normandian fiefs. County of Artois proper can be given him by his half-brother as "real" appanage so that he does not depend on dowry of his wife for this:)
     
  13. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    SOunds good to me, would he ever be given the governorship of Normandy or would that be considered far too risky?
     
  14. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Depends on his relation with his half-brother the King.
     
  15. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Hmm true, also so I get the style of address right, as the oldest surviving brother of the King he'd be referred to as Monseiur correct?
     
  16. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    Yes, as Philip d'Anjou became Filipo IV of Naples and Charles de Berry died, the style passes to the youngest surviving (and the only available) brother.
     
  17. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Alright class :)
     
  18. Valena Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2013
    Location:
    Wild wilderness of wild Muscovy
    So, on the one hand Maine would be pissed that he'll be losing two of his favorite possessions, on the other hand, his daughter would be the new Madame, and he still keeps his status as Sovereign Prince de Dombes.
     
  19. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2015
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Indeed this is true, and he can keep good favour with his nephew
     
  20. AJNolte Life keeps getting in the way of writing.

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    -On Law: maybe. The thing is, figuring out who'll make Bishop if the church is higher is really difficult. So, for example, John Johnson, Vickar of Cranbrooke, is a good theologian who probably gets a Bishopric here, but how high can he go? Hard to say. Atterbury is almost certainly prominent: IIRC he was considered for Canterbury under Anne IOTL, but ultimately passed over [after which he became a Jacobite, corresponded with the Pretender, and essentially lit his episcopal career on fire].

    I'll say this about Law: he was considered for episcopacy before he stumbled at the oath to George I, and even after he left the C of E, his Three Letters to the Bishop of Bangor were highly respected by the high church party. So given his natural abilities, Canterbury's not totally crazy, though London or Oxford would also be possible.

    And if Law does get Canterbury, his fusion of evangelical devotion with high church principles/piety will have a huge impact on the church. As in, could conceivably keep the Wesleys in it, leading to a variant of Methodist Anglicanism. I don't know what you have planned for the colonies, but tying the Methodist movement firmly into the national church has massive potential nock-on effects if those of us across the pond end up not separating.

    Re: Sweden, I'd say it probably depends on what the union of churches means in terms of practical politics, but I could certainly see it as something he'd consider if there's another royal marriage. At a minimum, something like recognition of the mutual validity of orders and the right for communicants of one church to commune at the other when abroad would be a nice, and probably very doable, gesture. [Basically the Lambeth Agreement of 1908 two hundred years early].

    The other pragmatic reason James might go for it? Swedes and Finns made really good colonists in North America, and having them in the church in the colonies--a thing that was already happening ad hoc at this point--would serve to strengthen that church more. Given his... hesitancy... re: nonconformists, that's probably desirable.

    As for Scotland: I actually think getting the Scottish Episcopals to transition to the 1662 isn't that hard, particularly if it reconciles elements of the kirk to the new episcopal settlement. You might have a couple of Bishops pushing against this and really strenuously arguing for the 1637 because of a couple of liturgical components like the epiclesis that were in the 37 but not the 1662. [Basically the usager-non-usager split IOTL]. Interestingly, though, the IOTL Scottish Episcopal Church just authorized use of both rites, and as a pragmatic compromise it worked.

    The irony is that I could see the king arguing "We need to make them all use the 62" while the more high church Bishops are for tolerating use of the 1637 because it was Laud's book and has a lot of the liturgical innovations they'd honestly prefer.

    Interesting times in Scotland, to be sure, and with the Stuarts behind the Episcopal Church, will Presbyterians begin advocating for republicanism?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
Loading...