What if Anne Boleyn do not miscarried her child in 1536? The child was a boy, who would be Henry VIII‘s heir and secure her position as his wife and Queen, making her untouchable for her enemies and destroying forever any hope of Mary to being restored as princess (as Charles V had abandoned her as soon Catherine was dead)
A Boleyn England
- Thread starter isabella
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Henry VIII, King of England (b. 1491) married a) Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536) in 1509 annulled in 1533, b) Anne Boleyn (b. 1507) in 1533, had relationship with c) Elizabeth Blount (b. 1500) and d) Jane Seymour (b. 1508-1537)
NOTES: Mary Stuart for the third son instead of one of the older boys can look strange but Henry here, with available spares, do not need absolutely to marry Mary to his heir AND Scotland like better the youngest boy as King Consort for reducing the chances of an union with England
- a) lady Mary Tudor (b. 1516)
- c) Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (1519-1536) married Mary Howard (b. 1519)
- b) Elizabeth (b. 1533) married Philip II, King of Spain (b. 1527) in 1549
- b) Henry IX, King of England (b. 1536) married Eleanor of Austria (b. 1534)
- d) Edward Fitzroy (1537-1553)
- b) Anne (b. 1538) married Frederick II, King of Denmark (b. 1534)
- b) George, Duke of York (b. 1539) married Jane Grey (b. 1536)
- b) Eleanor (b. 1540) married Erik XIV, King of Sweden (b. 1533)
- b) William, Duke of Richmond (b. 1542) married Mary Stuart, Queen of Scotland (b. 1542)
NOTES: Mary Stuart for the third son instead of one of the older boys can look strange but Henry here, with available spares, do not need absolutely to marry Mary to his heir AND Scotland like better the youngest boy as King Consort for reducing the chances of an union with England
Some considerations on the Boleyns and the Seymours
Birthing a son, and just after Catherine’s death would secure her place as Queen of England, granting her the full foreign recognition who she was started to enjoy after Catherine’s death. At this point, do not matter how much King Henry fancied Jane Seymour she would never be more than a simple mistress, unlikely to receive much favours for herself or her family. I can see Edward Seymour still making a good career and possibly being later elevated to the peerage as Baron or Viscount, but nothing more, as he was smart, brilliant and Protestant...
George Boleyn is likely to be upgraded as Earl of Ormond, if Thomas Boleyn‘s Earldom of Wiltshire will be updated to a Dukedom, leaving the title of Viscount Rochford to his own eldest son, once the baby will be born and likewise William Stafford is likely to be at least knighted, if not elevated to the peerage as Baron…
George Boleyn is likely to be upgraded as Earl of Ormond, if Thomas Boleyn‘s Earldom of Wiltshire will be updated to a Dukedom, leaving the title of Viscount Rochford to his own eldest son, once the baby will be born and likewise William Stafford is likely to be at least knighted, if not elevated to the peerage as Baron…
Why is Elizabeth paired with Philip? No way is Henry going to accept that when he went through all that effort to get rid of Charles' aunt. And Charles would see Elizabeth as bastard since she was born when Katherine hadn't died yet.
BECAUSE Charles V had SERIOUSLY taken in consideration that match in OTL, maybe? And he had recognized Anne as Queen as soon Catherine was dead as he needed the alliance with England. Naturally here in the end Charles would still choose Maria Manuela for Philip, but after her death the match between Philip and Elizabeth would be taken again in consideration and this time will go ahead.
A son of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn would be a Tudor king, not a Boleyn king.
Seeing the title of the thread, I initially thought it was about a marriage between George Boleyn and Mary Tudor. 😅
Also, is it after Francis II's death or do you avoid the marriage with Francis in the first place?
Seeing the title of the thread, I initially thought it was about a marriage between George Boleyn and Mary Tudor. 😅
I think Henry VIII would want Mary to marry his heir precisely in order to have a personal union.
Also, is it after Francis II's death or do you avoid the marriage with Francis in the first place?
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She had her last kid exactly at 35 years as for me her most likely birthdate is 1507…
Easy mistake, but I think who both Elizabeth and an ATL brother can very well be seen as “Boleyn” princess and prince/King considering everything
Maybe Henry would want that, but Scotland would NOT. Meaning who an Henry with three sons can easily offer to Scotland the choice among his sons, specially if he has already planned another very prestigious match for his heir (who is much older than the Scottish Queen)…
If Henry VIII had more boys Scotland can easily reject the Prince of Wales for their infant Queen but offer a match with one of the younger brothers, likely the youngest, who can be raised at least partially in Scotland together with his bride-to-be. A second or better third son of the King of England would be, in my opinion, a much more attractive match for the Scottish than either the Prince of Wales or the Dauphin as would consent to them to keep their independence
I love this, and all the matches make perfect sense...except that I wonder whether Anne, with all her French connections, wouldn't rather have Dauphin Francis (b.1544) for Eleanor than Frederick. And if that's the case, then I can't see Henry not at least trying for it, not when she's given him his heart's desire three times over.
Well I think who at that point England was too firmly in the Imperial/Spanish camp for having Henry II interested in marrying his son to an English princess, specially when the youngest is four years older than him. That or maybe Dauphin Francis died early, leaving a Dauphin way too young for her
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But why would Henry VIII do that?
In OTL, he tried to kidnap Mary in order to force her to marry Edward. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?
Also, there is something very important you do not seem to take into account: Mary's claim to the throne of England. In the eyes of the Catholic Church, any child of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn is a bastard and Mary Stuart becomes the legitimate queen regnant of England at the second Mary Tudor dies (except of course if Mary Tudor has a legitimate child). Considering that, how could Henry VIII propose a younger son for Mary Stuart? That would be the best way to end up with a new War of the Roses between two Tudor branches.
My guess is that Mary Stuart's fate, at least at the beginning, would follow the OTL path.
Henry VIII tries to force a marriage with his eldest son. To prevent that, Marie de Guise sends Mary to France. Mary marries Francis who still dies young. Then, depending on Henry II's death being butterflied away or not, Mary may either marry Charles (which would be very interesting) either come back to Scotland. If she comes back to Scotland, I guess she can marry William but only if William rebels against Henry IX, converts to Catholicism and claims the throne of England in the name of his wife.
If Henry VIII is reasonable and does not try to force a marriage (but it sounds very out of character), I guess the Scottish would keep the Auld Alliance, but not to the point of a personal union with France. Then, Mary is likely to marry a French prince but not the dauphin. François de Montpensier would be perfect.
Francis always had terrible health and he is likely to die early anyway. I think he would still marry Mary but, if he does not, I don't think he would have such an obvious fiancee and I guess he would die before marrying (in OTL, he died at the age of sixteen).
Here Anne will be the Queen of England RECOGNIZED BY EVERYONE, naturally. Mary Tudor and her claim will be abandoned by everyone as Anne had three boys.
Henry can and will propose a younger son for Mary Stuart as that is the best thing to do for every side involved meaning who nobody in his right mind would deny the right to the throne of Anne’s children. If you have missed that Henry IX is married to an Archduchess while Elizabeth is Queen of Spain.
When England has more than one prince to offer, sending Mary in France to be raised there and married to Dauphin would be an useless folly.
Your idea is quite unrealistic and do not keep at all count of the DIRECT CONSEQUENCES of the POD
Is it a joke?
Henry VIII is a schismatic king who self-proclaimed head of the Church of England, who rejects papal authority and who persecutes Catholics in his kingdom.
Of course, the Catholic Church will never recognize his marriage with Anne or the legitimacy of their Anglican children. Some of said children being boys or marrying Habsburgs does not change anything about that. And, of course, many English Catholics will want Mary Tudor and later Mary Stuart on the throne of England in order to put an end to anti-Catholic persecutions.
If you want to avoid that, you need Henry VIII to renounce to Anglicanism and to reinstate the Church of England inside the Catholic Church, under papal authority. Something he would never do.
The useless folly would be for Henry VIII to offer his younger son as a husband to the legitimate Catholic heiress to the throne of England. He will want Mary to marry his eldest son, meaning Mary's situation is the same as in OTL and she has good chances to marry Francis as in OTL.
What idea and what direct consequences are you talking about?
Look, I am sorry who you are deluded because I am NOT planning a Mary Tudor/George Boleyn match and do not believe who nobody in the world would ever accept Anne Boleyn’s children as legitimate heirs of England as you do and who Mary Stuart has a divine acknowledgment of all the Catholic Europe as legitimate heiress of the English Crown in any scenario but things do not work like that.
Also the Pope was more or less controlled by Charles V, and Anne Boleyn’s OTL fall happened just when everyone was starting to recognize her as legitimate Queen and is likely who the English religious situation would evolve in a way similar to the one of the Protestant states in Germany. If you are here only for saying who you do not believe this scenario possible please stop to post here
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I think that's I will do.
Because, if you think papacy and English Catholics will support Anglican kings who persecute Catholics, I actually see nothing more to say.
Like but for one thing. A 1535-6 PoD could easily butterfly James the 5th's death leading to a son circa 1542-3 which means Mary Stuart would have a less eventful life.
Avoiding Francis seems quite impossible given Scotland's situation at the time...
I think if Henry offered a second or third son instead of his eldest, then the rough wooing would never happen and Scotland would not send Mary to France.
Then that could work I suppose, though I dread to think of the Habsburg-esque genetics floating around in their future...