Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by pdf27, Nov 12, 2016.
I think pdf is referring to Beria's pedophilia making him unpleasant to write as 'saving' the USSR.
Unhappily, he is probably not the only leading twentieth century figure to be sexually abnormal (at least by the standards of the time). Mao was reportedly a borderline pedophile as was Charlie Chaplin. Lin Bao a voyeur. Very nasty rumours around Claude Dansey and Terence O'Neill. Sumner Welles and Keynes were promiscuous homosexuals. Lord Louis Mountbatten into gay sado-masochism.Not to mention Hector McDonald as a suspected pedophile. And that's only the ones we know (or suspect) about.
I know you said 'by the standards of the time,' but do you seriously stand by putting homosexuality on the same level as pedophilia? How on earth is Keynes being gay remotely close to Beria's homicidal child abuse?
And why is it something to be 'unhappy' to write about?
I'm not sure why Shawningan wasn't nationalized during WWII iOTL...
Looking longer term, it appears that Quebec will feel less isolated iTTL. With France Stronger, I wonder if they would feel more the Crossroads of the International Entente. But a Liberal France (in Quebec terms) as a Stronger partner might lead to the conflict in Quebec being more directly conservative/liberal rather than focused on independence.
I think the 10% of power in the US is probably a misunderstanding - https://www.aps.org/units/fhp/newsletters/spring2015/oak-ridge.cfm suggests it was actually 10% of the power generated by the TVA, which makes a lot more sense. The killer is that the Clinton Engineering Works transmission system topped out at 310 MW - a tiny fraction of US generating capacity.
UF6 enrichment requires vast amounts of power, but don't confuse the amount used by the 1980s with what would be consumed by a 1980s bomb project - the amount of uranium passing through increased vastly with time. This is actually a significant factor in British & French postwar nuclear and industrial policy.
Hydro-Quebec was created in 1944 OTL, Godbout's vendetta with them was an OTL thing. The UK industry was nationalised in 1947 - I think partially it was a fashion at the time, but also countries were finally adopting unified national grids and doing that is very difficult with the prevailing mish-mash of municipal electricity companies.
Possibly, but that might be something for someone else to write.
Well, that and the fact that he was responsible for torturing and murdering vast numbers of people to advance his career.
It was in 1944 as I understand it.
I doubt it - the relationship between France and Quebec isn't nearly as strong as the French think it is.
Did you actually just put "promiscuous homosexuals" into the same bucket as pedophiles?
I'm in no way defending the comparison, in any way, shape, or form, but the poster did say 'the standards of the day,' and by those standards, to be promiscuous and gay was considered abnormal. Thankfully, we have moved on.
No, Montreal Power and Light was in 1944, Shawinigan Water & Power Company wasn't added until 1963.
Not in terms of moral equivalence how their behaviour is to be regarded. In terms of the "your career will be destroyed if this gets out" bucket yes I did. That was the social reality up until at least the seventies, more probably the early eighties. I remember Jeremy Thorpe's political career being destroyed during my time at primary school. That in fact was how I found out what a homosexual was.
The thing is, the post you were responding to wasn't talking about what their contemporaries would've thought, it was talking about it being unpleasant to write a timeline portraying a sexual predator such as Beria in such a positive way, and so your response made it sound like you thought writing a gay man in a positive light would be equally difficult to stomach.
My point was that quite a lot of historical figures have hidden dimensions to their lives in respect of interests and activities antithetical to the mores of their own era. And that we only know about the blatant and those exposed in or after their lifetimes.
By the '50s, with all the various 'K' plants at Oak Ridge, I have seen 7300MWe tossed around, considering that the main French Plant postwar used 2100 for far fewer stages doesn't seem too far off the mark.
The Y-12 used a lot of power: but gaseous even more. That's the reason UF-6 production went off to centrifuges when that became viable
I'd wager that was more down to the attempted murder of Norman Scott and the death of Scott's friend's dog in the attempt. The fact that Thorpe got off could arguably be because the Judge at his trial was so sympathetic towards him because of his reputation as a respected politician. Thorpe may have been outed but the class and stature biases still favoured him.
Thorpe's a complicated one.
Because yes he wasn't an innocent Turning or Wilde like figure persecuted for his sexuality. He was a sexual predator and attempted murderer, hiring an assassian to kill an ex lover should end your carrer cos it's an awful thing to do.
But he was in that position because homosexuality was so unacceptable to his class and stature and you could argue he was criminalised by society to a certain extent. Obviously individuals are still responsible for that choice but it is one of the known consequences of criminalilising an activity that people want to do, is it leads them into further crimes. See all the homosexuals blackmailed into spying for hostile countries as other examples. Or drug gangs.
Oh I agree there's that element to it, I feel like the recent miniseries got the balance more or less right. One scene that sticks in my mind is when he asks for Reginald Maudling's help to cover up the affair and Maudling responds to the effect that "I will help you because you're One Of Us but if you continue to act like you're Not One Of Us then you'll be on your own in the future" with all the affable menace that that entails.
You're right - annoying, I'm sure I read it somewhere. Oh well, adding it in isn't too much of a stretch given the politics of the time.
As of 1996, the US had 740 tonnes of HEU in their inventory - crudely, 15 tonnes/year of production. The entire 1945 inventory was about 60kg, with (crudely) production rates of about 1-200 kg/year possible - that means the postwar plants were about 100 times the capacity of the wartime plants. 7300/100 is 73MW, multiply by 3-4 because the Calutrons were horribly inefficient and you get to about the APS power estimate. It's primary school maths, but probably about right.
At this point, that is pretty much everyone in the Soviet hierarchy. Every potential leader, from the most liberal to the most reformist to the most conservative to the most Stalinist was deeply involved in the purges and mass murders of the 30s, whether the population transfers, the campaigns against the peasants, the campaigns against ethnic minorities, the purges of the party, military and intelligentsia, the campaigns against the artists, the Holodomor, and so on. If you wanted to get ahead, you made your quotas for murder.
Frankly, if you want to get a Leader of the Soviet Union by 1950 with the least amount of blood on their hands, have a Military Coup...
Agreed, When the obvious question is why weren't they included iOTL, not a stretch.
Even then, quite a lot of them got their hands dirty during the revolution and the civil war. Take for example Zhukov, who got his first Order of the Red Banner for his involvement in the crushing of the Tambov rebellion, which saw about 140,000 civilian deaths, included from concentration camps and poison gas.
Separate names with a comma.