A Blois England

This may have been done, but I'm legitimately curious about Stephen I of the House of Blois winning the war in the era known as the Anarchy. I am curious as to how this might turn out. Ultimately, I have William, Count of Boulogne succeeding Stephen as William III. Would it be possible to create a timeline where Anglo-Norman culture persists till the modern day where English is a minority language using this as the POD? Let me know.
 
Well I doubt English would die out, but potentially if you have Matilda die in Germany and get rid of Robert Fitzroy, Stephen of Blois can ascend to the throne. Though I think Eustace would be a more promising heir to Stephen.
 
A few things would have needed to happen, and even still, the survival of a Blois dynasty would still be pretty iffy. Near the beginning of the Civil War between Stephen and Empress Matilda, Stephen had just defeated a Scottish invasion and was faced with Matilda and her followers arriving in England and based themselves at Arundel. Stephen had a chance to bottle up and capture Matilda then, but for whatever reason, he let her escape to Bristol, and that kicked off The Anarchy in earnest. Had he been able to capture Matilda, there certainly would have been a war, but Stephen would have had an enormous bargaining chip and possibly could have forced Matilda to recognize him as King of England.

Assuming war still breaks out, Stephen's son and designated heir Eustace of Boulogne, needs to survive. Perhaps with Matilda in custody, The Anarchy doesn't last as long as it did OTL, and Eustace died well towards the end of the war. His death really led to Stephen packing it in and recognizing Henry of Anjou as his heir while being allowed to remain king.

So Matilda gives up her claim to the throne and Eustace survives to succeed Stephen as King. However, the would-be Blois dynasty still has to deal with the very legitimate claim of Henry of Anjou, who would remain an extremely dangerous for for King Stephen (and subsequently, King Eustace), especially from all his Angevin holdings. Fortunately for the House of Blois, Eustace is married to Constance, sister of King Louis VII of France, so that's a potential ally for Eustace with which to further isolate Henry. In order for the Blois dynasty to really thrive, Henry has to be defeated and neutralized. If this doesn't happen, Louis VII ends up annulling his marriage with one Eleanor of Aquitaine. Though the circumstances are a bit different here, a marriage between Henry and Eleanor still makes a ton of political sense.

This would be an existential threat to the House of Blois and to the Capetians of France. Assuming the Blois/Capet alliance continues, then I have to imagine Henry tries to ally himself with the Holy Roman Emperor, who at this time would be the newly crowned Frederick Barbarossa, whose Swabian powerbase borders the French realm.

This feels like a giant powder keg. An awfully fascinating and truly intriguing powder keg.
 
A few things would have needed to happen, and even still, the survival of a Blois dynasty would still be pretty iffy. Near the beginning of the Civil War between Stephen and Empress Matilda, Stephen had just defeated a Scottish invasion and was faced with Matilda and her followers arriving in England and based themselves at Arundel. Stephen had a chance to bottle up and capture Matilda then, but for whatever reason, he let her escape to Bristol, and that kicked off The Anarchy in earnest. Had he been able to capture Matilda, there certainly would have been a war, but Stephen would have had an enormous bargaining chip and possibly could have forced Matilda to recognize him as King of England.

Assuming war still breaks out, Stephen's son and designated heir Eustace of Boulogne, needs to survive. Perhaps with Matilda in custody, The Anarchy doesn't last as long as it did OTL, and Eustace died well towards the end of the war. His death really led to Stephen packing it in and recognizing Henry of Anjou as his heir while being allowed to remain king.

So Matilda gives up her claim to the throne and Eustace survives to succeed Stephen as King. However, the would-be Blois dynasty still has to deal with the very legitimate claim of Henry of Anjou, who would remain an extremely dangerous for King Stephen (and subsequently, King Eustace), especially from all his Angevin holdings. Fortunately for the House of Blois, Eustace is married to Constance, sister of King Louis VII of France, so that's a potential ally for Eustace with which to further isolate Henry. In order for the Blois dynasty to really thrive, Henry has to be defeated and neutralized. If this doesn't happen, Louis VII ends up annulling his marriage with one Eleanor of Aquitaine. Though the circumstances are a bit different here, a marriage between Henry and Eleanor still makes a ton of political sense.

This would be an existential threat to the House of Blois and to the Capetians of France. Assuming the Blois/Capet alliance continues, then I have to imagine Henry tries to ally himself with the Holy Roman Emperor, who at this time would be the newly crowned Frederick Barbarossa, whose Swabian powerbase borders the French realm.

This feels like a giant powder keg. An awfully fascinating and truly intriguing powder keg.


In all honesty, my knowledge on the subject is lacking, but the timeline would probably fairly uninteresting without some intrigue. I really appreciate your suggestions.


Here are a few things that happen that create "An English War of Succession"

  • Stephen maintains England, He forces Matilda to give up her claims entirely
  • Stephen dies, Eustace becomes King. Eustace is now Count of Boulogne as well as King of England and Duke of Normandy.
  • Stephen's older brother William's line dies out, Eustace is now Count of Blois as well (This would improve the Blois odds a fair bit)
  • Eustace marries Constance of France, Louis and Eustace become allies
  • Henry of Anjou is adamant not to lose his claim, Louis VII annuls marriage with Eleanor of Aquitaine
  • Henry marries Eleanor
  • Henry makes a pact with Frederick Barbarossa to defeat the Blois-Capet Alliance

I don't know what the timing between all of these events would be. Would it be logical for Frederick to want to have the Capets as vassals or just take over Burgundy?
 
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Ultimately, I have Frederick losing Burgundy and the Capets winning. However, the Angevin threat remains real. Eustace who later becomes known as Eustace the Prudent decides to give the Duchy of Normandy, County of Blois and the County of Boulogne to Henry of Anjou in exchange for Henry forfeiting his and his descendants' claim to the English throne. Would this be a fair deal? Ultimately, Henry of Anjou is more keen on ruling France with the increase of French territories he now would rule. Eustace and his successors care more about Britain. Eustace's son Stephen (b.1154) marries Margaret of France in the year 1173 as a continuation of the Blois-Capet Alliance. France is unstable, the Capets are threatened by the dominance of the Angevins and the Blois back the Capets. In exchange for their support, the French promise Eustace and Stephen that they will support them their plans to invade Scotland.


What do you all think?
 
Constance of France ended up marrying Raymond, Count of Toulouse, almost immediately after Eustace's death in OTL. Toulouse and Aquitaine were enemies at this time. Since any of Raymond's issue by Constance is now butterflied away since she was never widowed ITTL, then any children Raymond has from a different wife entirely would be suitable for a marriage alliance with King Eustace by his own heir.

Alternatively, with Eustace's position as Count of Boulogne, he may be able to develop better connections with some of the baronies of the low countries, like Flanders, Brabant, or Hainaut. These baronies would rebel against France several decades later, but at the moment, there may be several eligible marriage candidates from there.
 
I really like what the situation you posited. Ultimately, Eustace making allies with the rulers of the low countries makes perfect sense. Toulouse would be a good ally in curtailing Angevin power. l? Also, I am curious as to what the political scenario might be in the next hundred years or so. France doesn't look like it is going to be centralized anytime soon. I have decided that Boulogne and Blois are Eustace's and Normandy is Henry's now after the Anarchy.


Events that have now transpire

Raymond of Toulouse marries Sancha of Castile instead
Henry of Anjou and Eleanor have a son Henry
Eustace and Constance has a son Stephen
Raymond has a daughter Adelaide
Years go by Stephen marries Adelaide
Henry the Elder dies, leaving Henry the Younger Duke of both Normandy and Aquitaine
Burgundy is still HRE land under the Hohenstaufens
Beatrice, daughter of Frederick I, survives and marries Henry the Younger. The Angevins now have ties to HRE


It's now the Capets, Blois, and Counts of Toulouse against the Hohenstaufens and Angevins.
 
These Angevins are going to be especially tough. Henry the Younger has a pair of very talented younger brothers in Richard and Geoffrey, and with fewer lands and more enemies, there may not be as much infighting between the brothers and the OG Henry of Anjou, as well as less of Eleanor playing her sons against her husband. They all need to be on the same page to survive here, even with the support of Frederick Barbarossa. They probably even bother to train John to be an actual warrior and let him look after some land.

Around this time, I think Provence was considered a part of the HRE, so there's a pool of potential brides from there and any number of Imperial fiefs throughout Germany, Italy, Burgundy, and Bohemia. On top of all that, there going to have to be plenty of marriages to arrange for Henry's and Eleanor's daughters.

Another thing, especially as the new timeline proceeds and butterflies are abounding, this new political situation probably won't permit many of these guys to join the Third Crusade in late 12th Century, at least not anyone who's in charge of any of these states because the situation could explode into warfare at any sign of weakness. Assuming that following the Crusader defeat at Hattin still occurs in 1188, the presumed crowned heads here would be King Stephen II of England, Duke Henry of Aquitaine (the former Henry the Younger, who would now have full inheritance over Anjou and Aquitaine and may even try to make himself a king in these lands), King Philip II Augustus of France, and Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa of the Holy Roman Empire. I doubt these 4 would go on Crusade, but guys like Richard, Geoffrey, and John would probably all go, especially John, the runt of the litter.
 
I could forsee a future where there is an attempted Angevin/Blois marriage. the temptation to bring so much land/wealth together a la Hapsburg would be too great.
 
These Angevins are going to be especially tough. Henry the Younger has a pair of very talented younger brothers in Richard and Geoffrey, and with fewer lands and more enemies, there may not be as much infighting between the brothers and the OG Henry of Anjou, as well as less of Eleanor playing her sons against her husband. They all need to be on the same page to survive here, even with the support of Frederick Barbarossa. They probably even bother to train John to be an actual warrior and let him look after some land.

Around this time, I think Provence was considered a part of the HRE, so there's a pool of potential brides from there and any number of Imperial fiefs throughout Germany, Italy, Burgundy, and Bohemia. On top of all that, there going to have to be plenty of marriages to arrange for Henry's and Eleanor's daughters.

Another thing, especially as the new timeline proceeds and butterflies are abounding, this new political situation probably won't permit many of these guys to join the Third Crusade in late 12th Century, at least not anyone who's in charge of any of these states because the situation could explode into warfare at any sign of weakness. Assuming that following the Crusader defeat at Hattin still occurs in 1188, the presumed crowned heads here would be King Stephen II of England, Duke Henry of Aquitaine (the former Henry the Younger, who would now have full inheritance over Anjou and Aquitaine and may even try to make himself a king in these lands), King Philip II Augustus of France, and Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa of the Holy Roman Empire. I doubt these 4 would go on Crusade, but guys like Richard, Geoffrey, and John would probably all go, especially John, the runt of the litter.


Douce II of Provence can marry a child of Eleanor...
 
Additional Events

  • Richard of Anjou marries Constance of Brittany thereby making Brittany an Angevin fief
  • Geoffery and John fight in the crusades. Geoffery dies while John distinguishes himself as a great warrior despite defeat at Hattin.
  • John agitates for land and Henry marries him is to Douce II of Provence, thereby making Provence an Angevin fief
  • Frederick I dies and Frederick II becomes Emperor and pledges to support his brother-in-law when Henry declares himself King of Aquitaine (Aquitaine, Brittany, Anjou, Provence, Normandy)
  • Henry has a son, Frederick
  • Stephen has a son, Stephen,
  • The Capets are now reduced to ruling over a few counties and the Ile de France. Phillip II wants to change that
  • The Capets, Blois, and Toulouse make a deal that will split the Angevin lands among themselves
  • Normandy is taken by the English
  • Richard of Anjou pays homage to Philip and joins him
  • John, Count of Provence decides to also bend the knee
  • Henry the Younger and his court fled to Sicily
  • Anjou and Aquitaine are now part of the French royal domain.
  • This leads to the second largest landowner in France being the English
  • Philip dies before having any heirs, the Blois now can claim the French throne as well

I think Henry the Younger might want to claim the French throne as well. Richard would support him, but not John

If Frederick II dies early, Frederick of Anjou could inherit the HRE, Burgundy, and Sicily


France could be split in the half between English and the Angevins possibly
 
There's a minor issue in that Geoffrey of Anjou already has Normandy by the time of Matilda's near capture. If he didn't she couldn't have crossed over.
 
There's a minor issue in that Geoffrey of Anjou already has Normandy by the time of Matilda's near capture. If he didn't she couldn't have crossed over.

Yes, I agree with that part, but the Blois get it back after splitting up the Angevin lands between themselves and the French happened much later.

What should I represent the Coat of Arms of England to be? A Quartering of the Capetian Coat of Arms, Boulogne Coat of Arms, Blois Coat of Arms, and the Norman Coat of Arms. That would be cool

On another note, how would I end the union between England and the French counties. Another war of succession when male line of the Blois dies out?
 
What should I represent the Coat of Arms of England to be? A Quartering of the Capetian Coat of Arms, Boulogne Coat of Arms, Blois Coat of Arms, and the Norman Coat of Arms. That would be cool
And unfortunately highly anachronistic.
This is the period when arms settle down and become hereditary. They were likely either family or individual arms at this point.
Blois is simplest and was likely the blues (Blois in canting) separated by the white stripe.
Capet probably had yellow check on blue pattern, maybe sometimes skewed, with the king using fleurs instead.
The Normans probably just had red. Perhaps with a yellow personal sigil - Henry II seems to have had a yellow lion on red from his father's 6 yellow lions on blue. This is where the English and Norman and possible Aquitaine leopards/lions-passant-gardant come from.
The OTL Boulogne arms come from Mathias of Flanders and were the Alsace red on yellow colours. The discs being canting - Boules for Boulogne.
Check out the pedigrees on earlyblazon.com and that should highlight what I've said.
So whatever Steven uses, or his son, will likely become the English Arms. The centaur with bow is probably a later invention attributed to him.
This could possibly be a red version of the Blois family arms. See this image:

img_20181111_133904_20181111134417144-jpg.419935
 
And unfortunately highly anachronistic.
This is the period when arms settle down and become hereditary. They were likely either family or individual arms at this point.
Blois is simplest and was likely the blues (Blois in canting) separated by the white stripe.
Capet probably had yellow check on blue pattern, maybe sometimes skewed, with the king using fleurs instead.
The Normans probably just had red. Perhaps with a yellow personal sigil - Henry II seems to have had a yellow lion on red from his father's 6 yellow lions on blue. This is where the English and Norman and possible Aquitaine leopards/lions-passant-gardant come from.
The OTL Boulogne arms come from Mathias of Flanders and were the Alsace red on yellow colours. The discs being canting - Boules for Boulogne.
Check out the pedigrees on earlyblazon.com and that should highlight what I've said.
So whatever Steven uses, or his son, will likely become the English Arms. The centaur with bow is probably a later invention attributed to him.
This could possibly be a red version of the Blois family arms. See this image:


Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it. Ultimately, I really like the last one on the bottom right. I think that may the new Blois family arms, and ultimately the English Arms. Maybe the Centaur with a Bow being added by later Kings.



Additionally

  • I think the Angevins will take over Eastern France, but lose Aquitaine and Normandy again to the English.
  • With the Capetians gone, Henry the Younger, now known as Henry the Lion is King of France.
  • Western France is now entirely under English suzerainty
  • Henry the Lion dies and Frederick II dies, Frederick names his nephew Frederick of Anjou as his successor to Burgundy, Sicily
  • Frederick is also declared Holy Roman Emperor. ( I know this is improbable)
  • England begins to develop stronger alliances with the Low Countries and Scotland
 
Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it. Ultimately, I really like the last one on the bottom right. I think that may the new Blois family arms, and ultimately the English Arms. Maybe the Centaur with a Bow being added by later Kings.



Additionally

  • I think the Angevins will take over Eastern France, but lose Aquitaine and Normandy again to the English.
  • With the Capetians gone, Henry the Younger, now known as Henry the Lion is King of France.
  • Western France is now entirely under English suzerainty
  • Henry the Lion dies and Frederick II dies, Frederick names his nephew Frederick of Anjou as his successor to Burgundy, Sicily
  • Frederick is also declared Holy Roman Emperor. ( I know this is improbable)
  • England begins to develop stronger alliances with the Low Countries and Scotland
Aquitaine is possible for Blois just have one of the Blois bros get Eleanor for themselves.
 
Careful with the planning... If Stephan and Eustace are able to keep England they will still surely lose Normandy to Matilda, Geoffrey and Henry... so a match between Henry of Normandy and Anjou and Eleanor of Aquitaine is still aslogical as was in OTL and they would still have all their OTL French lands lands. Likely Boulogne and any french land of Stephen would be inhereited by William
 
What with the Capet branches of Dreux and Courtenay as rightfull heirs ?
The House of Dreux still controls Ile-de-France, but the Angevins are de-facto rulers of Eastern France. The House of Courtenay flee and settle in England and are made Earls of Courtenay(they lose relevance)



Agnatic Primogeniture is adopted by the nominal French kings in Ile-de-France( this sets later precedent for French monarchs after the end of Angevin rule in France)

How do end the union between the French counties in the West and England? Ideas? I think perhaps a king taxing his French lands to pay for future English Wars in Wales and Ireland could be a plausible way to do this.
 
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