A Better Show in 1940
- Thread starter Michele
- Start date
Saphroneth
Banned
Revenge didn't make it to beach "C". It was between "E" and "D" when it broke down.
The "better show" is for the Luftwaffe - other German units are at historical effectiveness.
Since the RN is only engaging in night action, then any description of the channel guns firing would be them uselessly trying to hit evading targets at night at extreme range by pumping shells into the landing zones. That's like trying to stop a fox from getting into the henhouse with an anti-tank round aimed at them as they fiddle with the door in the middle of the night...
Yes, extreme range. Look up the timeline to see where the Revenge was in the timeline.
Quote your source and provide details. What was going to move these guns, on what day after S-day they would be shipped, where they would be placed, with what fire direction equipment. A reputable source, please.
This means you are commenting on and criticizing a timeline that you have not actually read. Such a behavior is beneath comment.
Ditto as above, not to mention that the RN had these specialized warships named minesweepers, and even had destroyers specially equipped to work as minesweepers, and that if mines can cause disastrous results against warships, then British mines can cause very disastrous results against tugs and river barges - something that has been pointed out to you multiple times, but you seem to suffer from a peculiar condition that prevents you from reading and acknowledging unpleasant truths.
I will also add that the timeline is meant to represent "A better show" by the Luftwaffe, and that is made clear in post #1. It's already a big stretch of imagination as it is, with several separate improvements - within the Luftwaffe. If you want a timeline with improvements to the Kriegsmarine, and why not to the Heer, and while you are at it to the NSDAP, this site has an impolite word for that sort of thing.
Before commenting again in this thread, do yourself a favor and read the damn timeline. So that you will avoid embarrassing yourself further.
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Saphroneth
Banned
I can find precisely two WW2 german 17cm pieces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_cm_Kanone_18
This one was produced from 1941 onwards, so it's not this one...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_cm_K_(E)
So it must be this 80-tonne monster, of which six were manufactured in toto.
The easiest solution for the Germans on this one is to try to capture, intact, British pieces in the Dover area. This is what the Brits thought might happen and the majority were rigged for quick demolition. So no luck there for the Germans.
sharlin
Banned
Oh noes a 6.8 inch gun...a secondary armament from a pre-dreadnought! At long range that thing would do bugger all to an R class ship and at long range they are not accurate enough to hit much, especially a small and manouvering target like a DD or CL.
The Germans did NOT have gunnery fire control radars at the time and I doubt they had a decent system of spotters to help with gunfire at such extreme ranges. To spot the fall of shot you would need aircraft relaying the fall of shot and some good gunners to adjust for the range, movement etc. Sitakes the German long range guns were not the be all and end all. They barely hit anything in the war save Dover and even then all they did was demolish houses and they can hit a town as they are not manouvering :s
*waits for a repost with the link to barges crossing the channel and german artillery barges 'doing well against russian destroyers' in an engagement that he's still not provided any details about.*
Mitchell wrote a fucking superb story, its BLOODY hard to write and NOT do a wank/screw, hell you could call a semi-successful Piniped a wank/screw regardless (successful in that they get troops ashore. Once.) and he did it superbly and you should read it instead of gibbering like a gibbon on Meth and spouting the same stuff again and again. The Cross Channel Guns were NOT going to close it to the RN, to think otherwise is foolhardy.
Also in that map you're showing the guns at Sangatte, Lindermann battery was not even in place until mid 41.
The Germans did NOT have gunnery fire control radars at the time and I doubt they had a decent system of spotters to help with gunfire at such extreme ranges. To spot the fall of shot you would need aircraft relaying the fall of shot and some good gunners to adjust for the range, movement etc. Sitakes the German long range guns were not the be all and end all. They barely hit anything in the war save Dover and even then all they did was demolish houses and they can hit a town as they are not manouvering :s
*waits for a repost with the link to barges crossing the channel and german artillery barges 'doing well against russian destroyers' in an engagement that he's still not provided any details about.*
Mitchell wrote a fucking superb story, its BLOODY hard to write and NOT do a wank/screw, hell you could call a semi-successful Piniped a wank/screw regardless (successful in that they get troops ashore. Once.) and he did it superbly and you should read it instead of gibbering like a gibbon on Meth and spouting the same stuff again and again. The Cross Channel Guns were NOT going to close it to the RN, to think otherwise is foolhardy.
Also in that map you're showing the guns at Sangatte, Lindermann battery was not even in place until mid 41.
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Just FYI, I looked up the issue of the CH and CHL radar networks being unable to pick up small raids of up to 4 aircraft.
It seems false.
There are many historical examples of the radar networks picking up individual aircraft (and some lone German recon or weather aircraft were engaged on that basis). Additionally, single, very slow friendyl aircraft were the standard system used for calibrating the radars.
In other words, as I hypothesized from the beginning, it is one thing that a small flight of four aircraft of Erprobungsgruppe 210 was not engaged by British fighters; it is entirely another issue to presume that that happened because the flight was not spotted by the British radar network.
There is the hypothesis that this flight was flying too low for the radar. That's not the standard practice of this unit, but of course it is theoretically possible - and nobody denies that under 100 feet, the radars couldn't work.
More likely explanations, all valid, are the following.
- The radar operators, or the air controller, made a mistake. Interceptions did occasionally fail for such a simple reason. The operator misjudged the height (a relatively common event especially at the beginning of the campaign), or the controller gave wrong directions.
- At that time there were two or three 100-plus raids on the table, too. Thus the 4-aircraft raid might have been masked by one of those, or it might have been correctly spotted, but ignored because of the more important targets.
- The raid was made up by 4 Bf 109s and/or Bf 110s; this identified it as a fighters-only raid, because of the speed, much higher than a bomber raid, and the British were under orders to ignore those.
- A combination of any/all of the above is a possibility, too.
It seems false.
There are many historical examples of the radar networks picking up individual aircraft (and some lone German recon or weather aircraft were engaged on that basis). Additionally, single, very slow friendyl aircraft were the standard system used for calibrating the radars.
In other words, as I hypothesized from the beginning, it is one thing that a small flight of four aircraft of Erprobungsgruppe 210 was not engaged by British fighters; it is entirely another issue to presume that that happened because the flight was not spotted by the British radar network.
There is the hypothesis that this flight was flying too low for the radar. That's not the standard practice of this unit, but of course it is theoretically possible - and nobody denies that under 100 feet, the radars couldn't work.
More likely explanations, all valid, are the following.
- The radar operators, or the air controller, made a mistake. Interceptions did occasionally fail for such a simple reason. The operator misjudged the height (a relatively common event especially at the beginning of the campaign), or the controller gave wrong directions.
- At that time there were two or three 100-plus raids on the table, too. Thus the 4-aircraft raid might have been masked by one of those, or it might have been correctly spotted, but ignored because of the more important targets.
- The raid was made up by 4 Bf 109s and/or Bf 110s; this identified it as a fighters-only raid, because of the speed, much higher than a bomber raid, and the British were under orders to ignore those.
- A combination of any/all of the above is a possibility, too.
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Great TL, shame it didn't continue.
Glad you liked it. It didn't continue for the reasons mentioned a page or two ago, sorry.