A Better Rifle at Halloween

It is worth comparing German frightfulness in Belgium here to Belgian frightfullness in the congo. Both frightfullnesses have their origin in imperialist modern warfare where civilians are necessarily participants in war. While the nature of the wars is different in terms of formal and informal, military and civilian, exploitation of the advance and exploitation of the economy; while the nature is different, the technique of the bureaucratic apparatus of command is identical. It is very easy to centrally sign an order that will be broadly received in terms of liberation from constraints of culture or law. We could, quite easily, point to all bureaucratic states deploying corps or divisions or brigades or regiments conducting similarly frightful policy and action.

That's modernity. Its a reaction to Sherman and 1870 and the potential for the levee en masse to bring itself into being in an era of socialism and nationalism. At home and abroad.

The Germans are not particularly frightful. These particulars of the Germans *are* frightful.

yours,
Sam R.
 
It is worth comparing German frightfulness in Belgium here to Belgian frightfullness in the congo. Both frightfullnesses have their origin in imperialist modern warfare where civilians are necessarily participants in war. While the nature of the wars is different in terms of formal and informal, military and civilian, exploitation of the advance and exploitation of the economy; while the nature is different, the technique of the bureaucratic apparatus of command is identical. It is very easy to centrally sign an order that will be broadly received in terms of liberation from constraints of culture or law. We could, quite easily, point to all bureaucratic states deploying corps or divisions or brigades or regiments conducting similarly frightful policy and action.

That's modernity. Its a reaction to Sherman and 1870 and the potential for the levee en masse to bring itself into being in an era of socialism and nationalism. At home and abroad.

The Germans are not particularly frightful. These particulars of the Germans *are* frightful.

yours,
Sam R.
*SIGH* Once more, I was talking about propaganda, not necessarily reality about German occupation of Belgian. I was not comparing their acts of occupation to the Belgian acts in the Congo. Is that understood?
 
*SIGH* Once more, I was talking about propaganda, not necessarily reality about German occupation of Belgian. I was not comparing their acts of occupation to the Belgian acts in the Congo. Is that understood?
I know you were talking about OTL historical propaganda. I certainly wasn't placing my views of historical German frightfulness in Namibia on you, or of this ATL's historical frightfulness on your view of historical Germans. I know the Entente's propaganda about Germany is a touchy subject and I did not mean to suggest that you took that OTL historical propaganda seriously. I was trying to contextualise this ATL's view of the German's actions via Namibia, the Congo, Sherman, German actions against Napoleon III's state, actions by the US in the Phillipines, actions by British and French Imperial states in their periphery, and German actions against the commune.

I am sorry if my post suggested you were drawing a comparison between the Belgian Congo and historical Germans. It is obvious you weren't. I was trying to draw a comparison between occupational Imperialism in the periphery, Imperial war against resisting civil populations in the metropole 1862-1873, and this ATL German actions in Belgium. Modern states are capable of a great nastiness is what I was getting at. In this ATL given the resistance of a city in siege (where traditional law of war views civilians as combatants and authorises three days of rape of the city), the movement to what would be considered war crimes by the besieger makes sense. This is in terms of my understanding of the general history of modern wars of occupation where civilians are readily available (for war crimes), and aggrieved besiegers or occupiers are not closely controlled by law of war from above, or a moral law of war in local tactical units.

I'm sorry I was obtuse and appeared to be talking about your views.

yours,
Sam R.
 
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yeah a white peace of sorts with the germans compensating the belgians when the stalemate develops could be a interesting way to go with the story instead of trying to wargame a very alternative ww1 wich this is turning into.

Then have another try in the early 1930 maybe as a reaction to the great depression but keep it imperial themed still ? Then have another war like 15 years later if nukes arent discovered yet hopefully to have a truly alternative history story .
 
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First Army
28th August 1914, Hasselt.

Colonel General Von Kluck was the commander of the most powerful army possessed by Germany in the west. The delays to the capture of Liege caused by the stronger and more effective Belgian resistance had already caused his collegue Von Bulow to be replaced by Hindenberg, the fall of the fortress had enabled the advance to resume. Brussels would fall soon, the bulk of the Belgian army was occupying the defences of Antwerp with the remainder holding Namur. Apart from Belgian cavalry and Garde Civique forces, no formed units were contesting the centre of Belgium. A small number of German troops would screen the Belgians in Antwerp, the rest of the army would wheel on Brussels and push west south west towards Arras and Amiens. The key task now was to move with as much speed as possible to dislocate the French.
Hindenberg was going to attack Namur and was moving every heavy gun available to ensure that the forts defending it could be destroyed as quickly as possible. It was thought that this would focus the French on the Meuse river and draw reinforcements into the battle. One lesson which had been learnt was that attacks on fortresses backed by strong and well dug infantry required heavy artillery preparation. Germany had the guns to destroy the fortresses and their defenders.
One thing that was unknown was the strength and the location of the British Army, British troops had been reported to be in Ghent, but also in Mons and around Mauberge. Von Kluck and the whole of the higher command doubted that the British would split their small army in two to send significant forces to both Belgium and France. Von Kluck was of the view that the British troops in Ghent likely were only a division at most and were there to secure the Belgian Coast. Britain seemed to be afraid of its own shadow, he remembered a review of the “The Riddle of the Sands” which was supposed to be about a German plot to invade Britain. It was thought in army circles that this popular fear and the well-known contempt of some British Officers for their own reservists would keep a large part of the British Army at home. Why Britain with the world’s largest navy, would think Germany would risk invading it, with France and Russia on its own borders was never something which he could understand.
Irrespective of the actions and positions of the British Army, Von Kluck doubted that they would have much real impact, they were an effective colonial force but not configured for a major war against a European Power.
 
Irrespective of the actions and positions of the British Army, Von Kluck doubted that they would have much real impact, they were an effective colonial force but not configured for a major war against a European Power.
But they would be proven wrong. Very wrong.
 
The British Army in 1914 can't defeat the German Army, it's too small. What it can do, and did, is prevent the Germans from defeating the French.
 
Actually he's right. Where the British excelled was in organisation and re-organisation. They transformed their Army from a colonial police force into a continental army in the space of two years.
British Army already recieved a massive shock with the Second Boer War so the officer corps was very used to pulling accepted wisdom and practices to pieces by this point.

In some ways they were mentally prepared to do it again.
 
Irrespective of the actions and positions of the British Army, Von Kluck doubted that they would have much real impact, they were an effective colonial force but not configured for a major war against a European Power.

I think I saw Karma putting on her steel toe capped boots to kick Von Kluck in the groin for that presumption in the upcoming weeks.

The British army at the time was one in transition, their artillery was still a joke, there wasn't enough machine guns, but they were superb rifleman. The British army was a light infantry force and as more and more volunteers are going through training and wartime production kicks into overtime, this will change. But this period is the time of the very professional British light infantry formations. And if the FQH rifle is shown to be effective in this early period then by around 1916 it will be a lot more common. And i'd say by 1918, it will be looking at supplanting the bolt action rifle in British service.
 
More so than just that.

OTL, British and French forces had to keep pressing the offensive for political reasons, the need to liberate land, especially such industrially important land.
TTL, British and French forces are going to have a lot less political pressure for offensives while the Germans have a lot more.

While peace is an option, there's a very real chance that the German's end up the ones throwing a generation into the British and French lines.

And also a chance that they both do, creating a bloodier war and a stalemate that might actually end in an earlier armistice since neither side has any real advantage at the peace table.
Yes this is exactly what I mean - the French (and Entente) could not consider conducting peace talks from such a position of geographical weakness while the Germans could not do so from a perceived position of strength.
 
I think I saw Karma putting on her steel toe capped boots to kick Von Kluck in the groin for that presumption in the upcoming weeks.

The British army at the time was one in transition, their artillery was still a joke, there wasn't enough machine guns, but they were superb rifleman. The British army was a light infantry force and as more and more volunteers are going through training and wartime production kicks into overtime, this will change. But this period is the time of the very professional British light infantry formations. And if the FQH rifle is shown to be effective in this early period then by around 1916 it will be a lot more common. And i'd say by 1918, it will be looking at supplanting the bolt action rifle in British service.
Heavy artillery, the 13 and 18 pounder field guns were as good as any in the world.
 
Do not forget the excellent QF 4.5 inch Howitzer of the RA which entered service in 1910. Some of those were still in front line service in 1942.
 
Mons
28th August 1914, Mons-Condee Canal.

Sir Douglas Haig had responsibility for the command of the British 2nd army, which was made up of the original II Corps comprising 3rd and 5th divisions and a new Corps (IV) made up of two territorial divisions, the North Midland Division and the Home Counties Division. 2nd Army was responsible for holding almost 16 miles of frontage between Mons and Trazegnies. Haig’s initial plan had been to hold the line with only his regular troops but that would have resulted in each division being required to hold 8 miles of Line. Instead he intended to have IV Corps hold the line from Trezegnies along the Canal to La Louviere, whilst II Corps would hold the line from La Louviere to Mons. Every effort would be made to deny any crossing points to the Germans, already the bridges and locks on the canal were wired for destruction. The Territorial Engineers were just as keen to blow things up as their regular counterparts.
They had not yet encountered the Germans, but British Cavalry squadrons both Regular and Yeomanry were scouting forward of the defensive line, both to tackle the wide ranging German Cavalry and also to provide the most up to date information to their commanders that they could.
In the air the Royal Flying Corps was also active, it had aircraft operating as far forward as practicable, they were reporting directly to the BEF commander Smith-Dorien. From BEF command the reports were disseminated down to Army commands and Corps Command, the system was a relient on motor cycle couriers as it was on the French and Belgian Telephone system but it did give the BEF a fair idea on when to expect first conflict with the German Army.
From the British Perspective the key to holding the line was the performance of the French troops holding Charleroi, Namur and Dinant, if they held the Germans the British right would be secure, if they failed the British army would have to retire towards Maubeuge.
The Cavalry Corps was forming, the 1st and 2nd Cavalry Divisions had already deployed to France, the 3rd Cavalry Division was in Belgium. The Yeomanry had also sent 3 Divisions to war, 1st and 2nd Mounted Divisions were to operate in Belgium, whilst the newly formed 3rd Mounted Division was to join the 1st and 2nd Cavalry Divisions in the Cavalry Corps. Sufficient Yeomanry regiments remained to form one additional division and one independent brigade, these units would be retained in Britain along with the remaining 8 Territorial Infantry Divisions which were continuing to train and would deploy to France as they were able.
Haig was reasonably confident that the Territorials would fight well in a defensive battle, his main concern was their poor artillery and also the overall fitness both of the officers and men. He had every unit that was not in the line undertaking rigourous training to bring them up to the highest standards possible, he was also pushing the officers hard, once battle was joined he knew he would have to replace many of them but he would see who was fit to fight and who would be better positioned in the rear. Training battalions required officers as did they myriad of other administrative units already springing up.
One area in which Haig and his fellow senior commanders had no complaints was stores and supplies. Girouard, who had been placed appointed Lieutenant General and given command of the Rear Echelon for the BEF was working miracles. The steady transfer of munitions and equipment from Britain to France and Belgium was taking place. The French railways were operating under joint control in the British sector and it was anticipated that as more men joined up the British would run their own train companies to ensure that the Logisitics situation did not worsen.
2nd Army of the BEF and it’s commander Sir Douglas Haig were as ready as they could be, all that was needed was someone to fight, and that someone was marching through Belgium with blood in their eye.
 
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I assume this is a big change from OTL where the british units are not so stretched out covering a larger area and that Haig using the Territorials to help plug gaps and reduce frontage wasn't done OTL until later, and initially the UK relied purely on its professional units. And is the unit with FQH rifles in the mix with the Territorials under Haig's command?
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Just a question that has been bothering me since I start enjoying your wonderful thread, what the hell will happen in Halloween?
 
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