A Better Rifle at Halloween

[Mr Carrot]

@ArtosStark @Peg Leg Pom interesting chat on the logistics side - I know it's too early in the war ittl but given the unit rotational nature of the trench warfare element with the feed in, feed out etc. It doesn't seem too bizzare that they could establish a different calibre supply line if not at the FEOB but in the corps level supply district that a half decent loggy officer can sort out supply from?

But to be blunt I think we're falling into the military history trap as viewing the while thing as a whine / function of logistics above and beyond the General Staff telling the AOC to do their f**king job and get the rounds forward as ordered.

 

[diesal]

I am confident that arry slopers cavalry will be able to come to the rescue. They managed a total buggers muddle of different artillery calibers. I will investigate the challenge of converting the rifle back from my mythical 280 to 303 but I will have to work out what that does to the design particularly the magazine. Which in my version is much more conventional. Rims suck in magazines

 

[Rickshaw]

The FH rifle was adopted to .303in calibre. The videos from Forgotten Weapons showed one.

 

[diesal]

The FH rifle was adopted to .303in calibre. The videos from Forgotten Weapons showed one.

I know, but the point of the timeline is that it was redesigned for the
Siam army in a new rimless caliber and with a new non rubbish magazine, changing that fictional design to suit the 303 in order to simplify the logistics is non trivial in the story, also the ballistic characteristics of the new round are superior as it’s not a black powder round shoehorned into the smokeless age. The British army has managed to run multiple ammunition types before and after ww1, all the territorial divisions will be in France by December 1914, they won’t be all equiped with the SMLE MK3 in any case as only 130k had been manufactured by the end of 1914. The mk3* was designed to simplify manufacture so the choice is a brigade equiped with a new rifle in an odd round or a brigade with a rifle already known to obsolete.

 

[diesal]

On another note, does anyone know if the Royal Navy had any designs other than the R class and the admiral class battlecruisers? I am thinking of a ship that would be a heavy hood maybe with all or nothing armour, like the N3 design but early. Dreadnought doesn’t cover it and I can’t find anything on the net.

 

[steamboy]

On another note, does anyone know if the Royal Navy had any designs other than the R class and the admiral class battlecruisers? I am thinking of a ship that would be a heavy hood maybe with all or nothing armour, like the N3 design but early. Dreadnought doesn’t cover it and I can’t find anything on the net.

Well there's the ever popular Design Y which is more a proto-Hood

Dimensions: 207,3m (pp) x 29,3m x 8,84m
Displacement: 31.350tons standard
Engine: 108.000shp Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Maximum Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armour: 279mm (10 inches) Belt, 64mm Deck
Armaments:

4x2 15" (381mm) Cannons
16x1 6" (152mm) Casemated Guns
4x1 3" (76mm) AA Guns
4x1 21" (533mm) Underwater Torpedo Tubes

Although not as heavily armoured and more a clear battlecruiser version of the QE class. There's also things like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J3_battlecruiser

and there's tons of real designs here - http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5705

 

[pjmidd]

On another note, does anyone know if the Royal Navy had any designs other than the R class and the admiral class battlecruisers? I am thinking of a ship that would be a heavy hood maybe with all or nothing armour, like the N3 design but early. Dreadnought doesn’t cover it and I can’t find anything on the net.

All or Nothing armour, the first built RN ship with it is the Nelson Class although the unbuilt G3 and N3 both would have had it. However it appears in the USN in 1912, o its around as an idea. As to what could be built instead of the R's , there were many ideas but with very little work done. The R's came down to cost, it was floated the successor to the Queen Elizabeth's would actually be a faster version.

If money is not an option , you get that improved QE but once the Lexington design is known about ( 1916 ) , I'd expect a couple to be converted to battlecruisers on the stocks as a projected counter.

 

[diesal]

Well there's the ever popular Design Y which is more a proto-Hood

Dimensions: 207,3m (pp) x 29,3m x 8,84m
Displacement: 31.350tons standard
Engine: 108.000shp Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Maximum Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armour: 279mm (10 inches) Belt, 64mm Deck
Armaments:

4x2 15" (381mm) Cannons
16x1 6" (152mm) Casemated Guns
4x1 3" (76mm) AA Guns
4x1 21" (533mm) Underwater Torpedo Tubes

Although not as heavily armoured and more a clear battlecruiser version of the QE class. There's also things like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J3_battlecruiser

and there's tons of real designs here - http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5705

Thanks,

 

[sonofpegasus]

As I mentioned earlier if you want a practical Magazine for the .303 cartridge for use with the FH rifle then something like the magazine from the Madsen automatic rifle would be a good starting point. Like the FH rifle the feed lips on the Madsen were built into the receiver. The rounds were held into the Madsen magazine by a detent spring that disengaged when the magazine was pushed home into the magazine well. A system that should work just as well with the FH.

The round retention latch spring can be seen on the right of the this Madsen magazine. the system will aromatically hold rounds into a part used magazine on removal. simple, robust enough and fairly soldier proof.

 

[steamboy]

Ya welcome Something like the J3 with All or Nothing might be a good 'heavy Admiral' type ship.

 

[Schlock]

You can pretty much get a 28 knot version of the Queen Elizabeth Class for pretty much the same displacement as the above ship in Springsharp which is more likely for the current circumstances.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Any POD that impacts the R class has to be pretty much during if not before 1913 - all 5 units (of the 8 planned) were laid down by 15th Jan 1914

They were more an evolution of the earlier Iron Dukes (with bigger guns) than the QEs (which were were revolutionary by the standards of the day) - intended to take their place in the gun line.

The perfect answer would always be 'more' QEs, having 10-13 QEs BBs would be fantastic but its too perfect and building 5-8 more QEs was more expensive than 5-8 Rs

There is also the then yet unanswered concern around the secure supply of POL - and while this turned out to be a non issue - that was not known when they were being designed and ordered.

 

[diesal]

on the naval front one thing that people will have access to is the ludgate analytical engine. This means that finite difference calculations can be performed, consequentially numerical simulation becomes available, that opens all sorts of areas of investigation.

 

[steamboy]

An Improved QE would probably be along the lines of what the Canadians were meant to build. They re-sighted the 6-inch guns so they'd not be washed out by the sea, and then you could do an AON thing with them, the QE's had a 13-inch thick main belt but it was a rather thin and short strip amidships, reducing the extranious armour plating and making the 13-inch belt bigger would be a good start. maybe switch the engines over to small tube boilers.

Really the RN would probably be better served if you turned the R class into more Renown/Repulse type battlecruisers, especially in the long run.

So either more QE's (even if its 3 ships to get 8 in total) or say 4 x Repulse class battlecruisers instead.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

An Improved QE would probably be along the lines of what the Canadians were meant to build. They re-sighted the 6-inch guns so they'd not be washed out by the sea, and then you could do an AON thing with them, the QE's had a 13-inch thick main belt but it was a rather thin and short strip amidships, reducing the extranious armour plating and making the 13-inch belt bigger would be a good start. maybe switch the engines over to small tube boilers.

Really the RN would probably be better served if you turned the R class into more Renown/Repulse type battlecruisers, especially in the long run.

So either more QE's (even if its 3 ships to get 8 in total) or say 4 x Repulse class battlecruisers instead.

That's an interesting idea - 4 - 7 Renown's?

What would be the POD though?

 

[steamboy]

That's an interesting idea - 4 - 7 Renown's?

What would be the POD though?

Fisher is still at the Admiralty, if he's able to point at a victory like the Falklands and the Battle of Heligoland Bight as vindication of the Battlecruiser concept (which it basically was in their real intended role of hunting down armoured cruisers and light cruisers) and with new support for more Battlecruisers (which Jelleco always wanted) then you could get the political muscle for an alteration to the building plan.

1 - the 6th QE is still worked on (maybe an improved version with small tube boilers?)
2 - The R Class is stopped and the materials and funding for those 5 ships is put into 4 new battlecruisers.
3 - Get someone at the Admiralty who can argue with Fisher successfully and slap away any ideas for the Baltic plan (which was a love child of his) and thus any diversion of funds to the Large Light Cruisers. Instead you focus him and stroke his ego about the success of his idea on the Battlecruisers and get him to throw money and resources at getting the 6th QE built and the 4 new BC's built ASAP.

 

[pjmidd]

That's an interesting idea - 4 - 7 Renown's?

What would be the POD though?

Fischer as soon as he was back in the Admiralty, lead the charge for Renown's rather than improved R's. Add in a bit more knowledge on the USN thinking so that the Lexington's, which were first proposed in 1911, seem more likely to be built , add in a belief the Germans are building faster ships and the need for a counter rather than slow battleships is reinforced.

 

[steamboy]

Aye that's what I was thinking. This would give the RN a fleet of 6 QE's and say 4 Renown types by around 1917, of course any losses at Jutland would highlight the issue with thin armour and the Renowns only have a 6-inch belt, so they'll still be the Refit and Repair class but hopefully changes to give them a 9-inch belt would at least be done by 1918 and the lessons of Jutland would then alter any follow on ships like the Admiral Class which could alter how they're built/designed/protected.

And i'll point out that Jellico wanted more battlecruisers, he was confident enough in the strength of his dreadnought line but wanted more BC's so you've got the 1st naval lord cheering loudly for BC's and the commander of the Grand Fleet doing so too, thats a lot of pressure on politicians, and Churchill's got a receptive ear.

Admittedly this might leave the RN with a slightly weaker post WW1 fleet with 6 QEs and 4 Renowns vs 5 QEs' 5 R's and 2 Renowns but honestly with the growth factor in the Renown class compared to the R's, the RN's better off. And hell, without the waste of resources going towards the Courageous class, you might be able to get the Admirals or whatever analogue there is further along and by the time 1922 rolls around for an WNT the RN has 6 x QEs, 4 x Renown and 2 x Admirals with the Admirals being either ready to launch or undergoing trials/shakedown etc.

At which point the RN can still build some 16-inch gunned ships. And if there happens to be another two Admiral class hulls not as complete...well...CV conversion ahoy.

 

[ArtosStark]

All or Nothing armour, the first built RN ship with it is the Nelson Class although the unbuilt G3 and N3 both would have had it. However it appears in the USN in 1912, o its around as an idea. As to what could be built instead of the R's , there were many ideas but with very little work done. The R's came down to cost, it was floated the successor to the Queen Elizabeth's would actually be a faster version.

If money is not an option , you get that improved QE but once the Lexington design is known about ( 1916 ) , I'd expect a couple to be converted to battlecruisers on the stocks as a projected counter.

IOTL Fisher had proposed All-or-Nothing armour as early as early as 1910. It was not favoured by the rest of the Admiralty Board at the time. All-or-Nothing had actually been the standard on many Battleships in the 1800's. It fell out of favour in the pre-Dreadnought era due to the rise of Quick Firing 6" secondary batteries leading to the "hail of fire" concept. Basically burning a ship down. This required armouring the entire ship, even if the armour was thin in places. By rights, the Dreadnought revolution and the advent of long range fire probably should have brought All-or-Nothing back sooner than it did.

Any POD that impacts the R class has to be pretty much during if not before 1913 - all 5 units (of the 8 planned) were laid down by 15th Jan 1914

They were more an evolution of the earlier Iron Dukes (with bigger guns) than the QEs (which were were revolutionary by the standards of the day) - intended to take their place in the gun line.

The perfect answer would always be 'more' QEs, having 10-13 QEs BBs would be fantastic but its too perfect and building 5-8 more QEs was more expensive than 5-8 Rs

There is also the then yet unanswered concern around the secure supply of POL - and while this turned out to be a non issue - that was not known when they were being designed and ordered.

As much as I love the QE's they were actually kind of a screw up in the design department. They had been designed for 25 knots on a certain displacement with a certain amount of power in coal firing boilers. Then the Board decided to add a whole bunch of displacement to them without changing the design to compensate. Then Churchill managed to sneak oil firing in, expecting this to add several knots to her overall speed. Except that he had neglected to get the screws or the transmissions redesigned to take advantage of the extra power. So they were basically a more expensive and less capable version of what they had initially ordered. This is perhaps best shown by the fact that the first proposed design for the building year that eventually produced the R class was the U1. U1 also had a design speed of 25 knots and slightly better armour than the QE's on less displacement and using coal firing with oil sprayed.

Had they gone for a 27-28 knot ship with QE's armour or better and oil firing at the start they could have got it. Had they taken U1 design and redesigned it for oil firing they could have done the same on slightly less displacement with slightly better armour. It is true, though, that it is too late for most of the R class and the QE's ITTL. But if they really want to push the envelope they could take Design Y, and redesign it for small tube boilers (they did exist, but the Engineer-in Chief resisted them on maintenance grounds). They could probably get a 30+ knot ship on a slightly smaller hull with armour closer to the QE's level. Every design is a compromise within the limits of the available technology but even then RN ships of this era tended to leave some performance on the table.

on the naval front one thing that people will have access to is the ludgate analytical engine. This means that finite difference calculations can be performed, consequentially numerical simulation becomes available, that opens all sorts of areas of investigation.

Most ships were already using mechanical computers for firing calculations. (http://dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/Dreyer_Fire_Control_Table). They worked pretty well when they were used correctly and were continually refined throughout the war. The Ludgate computer's main advantage is the fact that it can be programmed to do many different kind of jobs. I don't know if it would have a distinct advantage over the Dreyer in an application such as gunnery calculations.

 

[steamboy]

That could be a can of worms on its own the differences between the Dreyer system and the more advanced Pollen system with its Argo clock which is an early computer, kind of like the Ludgate device but not as capable.

I'd say that if Scott's been given carte blanche to get the gunnery up to snuff and get directors then he'd probably be looking at both the Dreyer and Pollen systems and doing tests. These tests could bare out what's better and what could be adopted quicker. And perhaps something of the Ludgate device could be incorperated into it.