Of a personality clash. What really gets me is the US Marines went to France with Lewis Guns and the Army took them away from them and made them use Chauchat instead.
A Better Rifle at Halloween
- Thread starter diesal
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- britwank rifles ww1 different
The idea is that in WW1 OTL Britain had its Enfield P14 rifle, due to no capacity at Vickers (the designer) built at 3 Factory's in the USA, at Eddystone (a subsidiary of Remington setup specifically to produce the rifle), Remington and Winchester - building over 1,200,000 rifles
Later in the war all 3 factory's switched to production of the M1917 Enfield in 30-06 - building 2,193,429 of them - and these armed 2 Doughboys for every 1 armed with a 1903 Springfield!
So if instead ITTL one or all 3 are instead asked to produce the FH rifle for Britain and 'then' switch production to a 30-06 version to arm the US Army instead of the M1917 - we could see the US Army go to war armed with the FH!
That could have a very large butterfly if the Russians win at the Battle of Tannenberg or even if they just manage to avoid being destroyed.
As long as Max Hoffman is in the east, and he was one of the staff officers specifically that knew the Russians, it should still be the same.
Max Hoffmann - Wikipedia
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King George VI, Queen Elizabeth and the two Princesses also practiced with the family Thompson in 1940.
Not to undermine the concept but altering a semi automatic rifle from .303 rimmed to 30-06 longer rimless is much more of a task than doing it to a bolt action rifle.
The FQH had a pretty unique operating system designed with irregular ammunition loads in mind. It was gas operated but the gas actually only worked on a piston that locked after a short travel, after which the gas pressure was allowed to dissipate. This short travel of piston compressed a spring, which was then unlocked at the rear to act on the breech. This means that it is uniquely qualified to deal with hotter loads. And though I don’t remember the specifics of @diesal’s .280 the fad in the immediate pre-war ammunition community was small bore, extremely fast moving rounds, such as the .276 Enfield.
The .276 had a 11 g bullet (compared to the 9.7 g .30-06 m1906 ball) and left the barrel at 849 m/s (820 for the m1906) with a muzzle energy of 3853 J (3292). The problem with the .276 was that it was too hot, and was burning up barrels. But even if the .280 is downloaded from that a fair bit it is still likely comparable to the .30-06. Therefore a weapon designed for the .280 should have little trouble adapting to .30-06.
I wasn’t clear on this earlier so I didn’t say anything but I will mention it now. Especially in 1914, the British would not be willing to allow a non-standard cartridge in the front lines. In rear echelon duties, sure. But not for a unit going to be deployed to France. For the FQH to be accepted it would have to be adapted to .303.
I am also a little concerned with your use of “jams” in the SMLE as a device to get the FQH in service. The SMLE Mark III (not Mark I) was the standard in WW1 and it was introduced in 1907. The Mark VII Spitzer cartridge .303 was introduced in 1910. They have been tested and trialed and proven long before the run up to WW1. So where are all the jams coming from?
The London Scottish were deployed to France as the first territorial battalion, they were equipped with the Mk 1 they then didn’t get any range time with the MKVII ammunition. Initially they were used for LOC tasks, which is when they lost their Vickers Machine Guns which they Battalion owned not the Army. During the race to the sea they were attached to a regular brigade and went into the line at messines, they still hadn’t done any firing with the new ammunition at this point, they had huge problems with the MK 1 and the spitzer ammunition. I know this as my father was a member of the London Scottish and is still a subscriber today more than 60 years later, he used to talk about the winifredians who went over in 1914 and the problems they had with the MK1. The London Scottish when he was a member was one of the last units to go over to the SLR and he wasn’t a fan. I am away from my library but i will get the exact quote from the regimental history.
Fair enough. And I can see an individual regiment procuring a non-standard rifle in that situation. But on a wide scale I think the solution people would come to would be to phase out the Mark I by making more Mark III’s.
On the regimental side, I can get behind hat you have written so far as to the way the regiment could get ahold of the FQH, and that this could prove the rifles worth to the higher ups. But if it is in .280 I think they are likely to do what they did when other rich backers bought weapons for their formations. That is, allow them to use them for training but make them leave them behind when they go to France. I don’t think it works unless they are in .303.
But, perhaps that is just me. To be clear I am greatly enjoying the timeline regardless. That is just something that sticks out to me.
On the subject of a non standard round, it is a risk, i am taking it for two reasons The POD is the Thai order so no need for 303, also the order is big enough for a brigade sized deployment, thats not so small that supply is impossible. Also given the real problems with rifles in the early days of the war i think that a rifle that senior officers like, and now the secretary of state for war supports is going to get used. In addition the rifles belong to the battalion, not the army, the London Scottish was rich, the annual subscription in 1914 was 10 pounds, they could easily afford it. The 4th Cameron’s were equipped with the long lee Enfield at the start of the war they lost them and got arisakas then they got the SMLE in France. Tjhe 280 is not as hot as the 276, its more like a rimless 303 necked down to 7mm
I did think hard about sticking with 303, but the army already knew it wasn’t ideal, the 276 wasnt either, they still want to be able to kill horses so a 4.5mm 3200fps round wasnt on the cards either. Now that Kitchener is dead the Territorials are going to go over in numbers so the need for workable rifles becomes even more acute. My Grandfathers battalion the 4th cammerons didnt make it to France till 28th feb 1915 because of a measles outbreak that killed 15 men in bedford, thats one of the reasons I sent them to St Albans, 700 men died of disease from the Territorials before going to France, which is just mad.
I think the FQH is waiting for its chance to show what it can do. It's not been used in combat yet but will asuredly see action in France probably within the next month or so. And if the Germans thought that the British troops they faced were all armed with MGs due to the high rates of fire they could throw out with SMLE's, they're in for an even ruder shock when facing the London Scottish and their FQH rifles.
Action this day
9pm 20th August 1914, London.
Winston Churchill was beginning to wonder why he had chose Sir John French as his military adviser, the man was no use at all. Churchill had just come back from trialling the Farquhar hill rifle, he loved it, it shot flat accurately and quickly, it was solidly constructed and pragmatic, it was no sporting rifle. Churchill could not wait to see what it would do in the hands of the troops. Sir John French on the other hand was unmoved, he thought it was too long for the cavalry, it would shoot to quickly and the men would run out of ammunition. Churchill had to virtually coach the man on the main problem with the rifle, its obscure cartridge, developed to serve with the rifle but made in precisely one factory. Churchill had spent an hour using the rifle and then a further hour with Moubray Farquhar, he vaguely remembered him from the Boer war, he had a DSO for one thing or other. Farquhar and Hill had explained how the rifle worked and how they had worked with the Siamese to make sure it could handle the tropics and poor service conditions. They needed a substantial order and churchill would give them an order for at least 50,000 rifles, they also provided the army with the original 303 design and prototypes for comparison.
The next challenge was who to equip with the rifle, the 4th London Brigades was one option providing the rifle to the rest of the brigade, but the other option was to send the London Scottish to join a Highland Brigade, the Seaforths and Camerons Brigade were in St Albans Training. They had the even older Long Lee Enfield, they would be best served with a new rifle. The London Scottish had already sent volunteers to make up numbers in the Camerons and one of the Seaforth Battalions could be reduced to cadre for reinforcements to bring the other two battalions up to strength. Yes that would be a good idea, plus it put the kilted London jocks in a kilted brigade.
Winston Churchill was beginning to wonder why he had chose Sir John French as his military adviser, the man was no use at all. Churchill had just come back from trialling the Farquhar hill rifle, he loved it, it shot flat accurately and quickly, it was solidly constructed and pragmatic, it was no sporting rifle. Churchill could not wait to see what it would do in the hands of the troops. Sir John French on the other hand was unmoved, he thought it was too long for the cavalry, it would shoot to quickly and the men would run out of ammunition. Churchill had to virtually coach the man on the main problem with the rifle, its obscure cartridge, developed to serve with the rifle but made in precisely one factory. Churchill had spent an hour using the rifle and then a further hour with Moubray Farquhar, he vaguely remembered him from the Boer war, he had a DSO for one thing or other. Farquhar and Hill had explained how the rifle worked and how they had worked with the Siamese to make sure it could handle the tropics and poor service conditions. They needed a substantial order and churchill would give them an order for at least 50,000 rifles, they also provided the army with the original 303 design and prototypes for comparison.
The next challenge was who to equip with the rifle, the 4th London Brigades was one option providing the rifle to the rest of the brigade, but the other option was to send the London Scottish to join a Highland Brigade, the Seaforths and Camerons Brigade were in St Albans Training. They had the even older Long Lee Enfield, they would be best served with a new rifle. The London Scottish had already sent volunteers to make up numbers in the Camerons and one of the Seaforth Battalions could be reduced to cadre for reinforcements to bring the other two battalions up to strength. Yes that would be a good idea, plus it put the kilted London jocks in a kilted brigade.
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world war 1 is actually more important than world war 2 and it is less popular since its earlier i guess and it didnt have the good vs evil storyline helping.
Following this and wondering why there arent more ww1 stories . People are usually alot less familar with ww1 unless they are history people.
Following this and wondering why there arent more ww1 stories . People are usually alot less familar with ww1 unless they are history people.
To be pedantic, the story comes from one report from a captured German who said that it was as if they were firing machine guns. They knew they were facing rapid rifle fire. Including some from my grandfather probably as he was a regular who went over with the BEF in 1914.
Some of problems with WW1 stories are ;
The Western front is years of attrition via trench warfare unless you change the tech tree, no sweeping moves just hard slog,
The Naval side is pretty fixed unless ASB's change things ( the RN has numbers, production, training and tech over the HSF )
The air war is not going to be decisive without ASB's.
Russia in any long war will collapse in on itself, AH is in not much of a better state and the Ottoman's possibly worse ( the OTL fate of Armenians does not endear readers to them in any case also)
So you need to focus on a small aspect or change things almost to the point of ASB to get a decent story.
There may be enough rifles produced for a Brigade, but AIUI the London Scottish is only a battalion at this point. And the battalion may own the rifles, and maybe even the ammunition, but the War office owns the logistics train, and it is this that will determine if they allow them to be shipped to France.
To put in context the Logistics headache that this is going to entail, The .280 is going to need its own packing crate. It will need to be separately labelled, loaded and stored from the factory to the port (on civilian railroads). Since the volume is not large or steady enough to justify keeping large numbers of rail cars available to haul it they will have to request one, from an already overloaded system, whenever they need to send out a shipment. They will need to be separately unloaded and packed on ships crossing the channel (and I would not blame the stevadores for mixing ammo crates with other ammo crates, regardless of what is stenciled on the box), and stored separately in the warehouses on the other side. They then have to not be picked up the first time someone is looking to load a train with ammo, but be held for a specific train, going to a specific part of the front, and not have masses of other ammunition stacked in front of it when that train needs to be loaded. Once it gets to the rail head it will be stored on the ground until the transport units pick it up. Throughout the war there was a continuous shortage of wood on which to stack supplies at the railheads. That means that the .280 may well be directly on the ground absorbing moisture. And since it is a smaller pile a greater percentage of the total is going to be soaked. Then the transport companies (who may be attached to a specific unit or may not, depending on the location and units involved) need to pick up the right crates, and carry them to the right battalion in the area they serve. And by that time the battalion and the brigade it is attached to may have moved to a different part of the front, and now cannot use the ammo in stock there, and will need to somehow get the stuff stored at their old location to their new one.
Basically there is a very good reason why logistical concerns often trumped technical ones when it came to small arms adoption.
Once war breaks out, not being ideal is irrelevant, as you have lots of them and lots of guns that fire them. You are not likely to change to a new calibre for your frontline troops in the middle of a war of attrition. That kind of thing was one of the major problems during the Crimean War that lead to the death of the Ordinance Board as an independent and powerful organization within the army. What's more, the .303 was plenty good enough for WW1. In fact it was probably better suited than the .276 that they were looking at.
The supply of material for the probably expanded territorials is likely to come from the same pool that IOTL equipped Kitchener's New Army. So the conditions that informed decisions for supply IOTL are likely to be pretty similar ITTL.
If I may, you can get the FQH in service with the British Army from the point you are at without really needing to create the havoc that a non-standard round would cause. Churchill is more or less King of the Military ITTL and he has seen and liked the FQH in .280. It would not take a huge push from him to get some ordered in .303, especially since the FQH was made in .303 IOTL. IOTL the British had evaluated something like 20 automatic rifle designs from 1899 up to 1914, including several iterations of the FQH. The plan was never for general adoption but to issue them to a certain number of troops, kind of similar to the later use of SMG's. This philosophy would dovetail with the perceived (though possibly erroneous) need for a "Walking fire" weapon to help keep the enemy suppressed while crossing no-mans-land in the early war. So ITTL Churchill could place a large order for .303 variants with either box or drum magazines for this purpose. Then once the rifles are at the front and proving themselves the call for greater production as a general use rifle is made, and post war the .280 round is already there ready for adoption if the British so desire.
Nonetheless, as I said, I am enjoying the timeline either way.
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