a better off Japan

Idk if i should put this here or pre-1900
Hi
if there anyway we could get a better off Japan?
Maybe it keeps korea, Tiwan, and manchuria?
How owuld it look in the present day?
Would it be a higher tech state like present day Japan/Korea?
 
Idk if i should put this here or pre-1900
Hi
if there anyway we could get a better off Japan?
Maybe it keeps korea, Tiwan, and manchuria?
How owuld it look in the present day?
Would it be a higher tech state like present day Japan/Korea?

Japan not getting itself in World War 2 or another war with China might be two good steps.
 

mowque

Banned
Idk if i should put this here or pre-1900
Hi
if there anyway we could get a better off Japan?
Maybe it keeps korea, Tiwan, and manchuria?
How owuld it look in the present day?
Would it be a higher tech state like present day Japan/Korea?

In my TL, they get the Phillipines and keep a closer Anglo connection. Also, they get de jure control over some of East Russa...
 

Cook

Banned
How do we keep the role of the military under control and preserve the early democratic government?
 
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Typo

Banned
The best way is probably for Japan to stay out of Manchuria and China altogether.

Taking Manchuria meant confrontation with China is pretty much inevitable once someone unifies the Chinese heartland, which in turns means Japan will probably have to pre-emptive China like in OTL. Without confronting China, then an alliance between the two states might be possible in some sort of pan-asiatic alliance against European colonialism.

It might be possible for Japan to keep some sort of puppet state in the far east near the Pacific Coast, but direct control over too much of it makes a confrontation with Russia, red or not, which could spell disaster.

But this means that Japan needs to keep civilian control of the military firmly in place. Then remaining neutral in an European War, but I'm not sure if they can do that, weakly defended European colonies are awfully tempting after all.

Best case if Japan some how sorts out its internal problems? Korea Taiwan, a protectorate over a break-away Russian state centered in Vladivostok. Philippines is out of the question for post-1900, but strong sphere of influence over ex-European colonies in east Asia like Vietnam and Dutch East Indies is possible.
 
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Cook

Banned
Another observation; colonies can be very expensive.

Would owning Korea, Manchuria and Taiwan have benefited them or just been a drain?

After all, if you avoid war with China, a home grown nationalism in Manchuria and Korea would be almost inevitable. Perhaps Japan would have ended up struggling to de-colonialise just like the Europeans did.
 

Typo

Banned
Manchuria had like a 90% Han population, any manchurian nationalism will probably be attached to Chinese nationalism.
 

Cook

Banned
Manchuria had like a 90% Han population, any manchurian nationalism will probably be attached to Chinese nationalism.

There is no overall Chinese verbal language.
Manchurian Chinese nationalism could be possible.
 

Typo

Banned
Chinese Nationalism held together pretty well despite regional linguistic (which are pretty similar to each other actually) differences OTL, ethnic nationalism don't need a common language to hold it together. Most of the Manchurian Han immigrated from Mandarin speaking part of China.
 

Cook

Banned
Austrians don’t see themselves as German.
Perhaps the length of time of occupation would make Manchuria have a different identity to “Mainland” China. Also, perhaps China’s government would not appeal to the Manchurians and they’d prefer to go it alone.
 

Typo

Banned
Austrians stop seeing themselves as Germans only as a way to escape the whole nazi-guilt thing, not because of Hapsburg rule. Which is a pretty unique course of events I'm not sure you can duplicate in east asia.
 

Cook

Banned
Wether in the decolonial period they are faced with Manchurian Nationals or Chinese Nationals in Manchuria really doesn’t change the issue for Japan does it?

The question is does the cost benefit equation end up on the positive side or negative side for them being in Manchuria, Korea etc?
 
Multiple PoDs?

Isn't Japan doing pretty good as of now? 3rd largest economy in he world or something like that right? Anyways... you need to change quite a few events if you want Japan to do any better than it did (which was pretty good for it's circumstances) while keeping it's empire.

Japan wanted a war with China for a long, long time. You are going to need to change the leadership at the top of it - no militarists taking power is a first and foremost priority. A war drunken Japan is a defeated Japan. The most I see Japan taking and holding is Korea, Taiwan, the Russian Far East (White Victory?), Thailand, and maybe even the Phillipines in a Spanish-Japanese War without stepping on a greater power.

If Japan somehow can not avoid fighting China or make concessions, then in some far near impossible way; it can hold Manchuria, Inner Mongolia, and perhaps Outer Mongolia (again lots of lucky PoDs for Japan).

Of course with these many changes, the world may be unreconizable as we know it.
 

Cook

Banned
Clearly a scenario that avoids the mass murder and starvation of Chinese followed by fire bombing and Atomic bombing of Japanese Cities can be called better.
 
What whe need is a Russian Victory in 1905, where Russia holds Manchuria.
This gives the Japanese Military a good Check, and allows the Civilians to exert control.
 

Typo

Banned
Wether in the decolonial period they are faced with Manchurian Nationals or Chinese Nationals in Manchuria really doesn’t change the issue for Japan does it?

The question is does the cost benefit equation end up on the positive side or negative side for them being in Manchuria, Korea etc?

Chinese nationalism in Manchuria increases the chance of an eventual confrontation with China
 
The Japanese were pretty well ensconced in Manchuria. They could probably have held it pretty much indefinitely. Yes, it would have meant continuous tension with China, and perhaps it would be better not to. However, the area is rich in coal and other resources, and it might well be tough for Japan to do as well as OTL without them.

However, the Kwantung army absolutely positively has to be reigned in. Without them, the huge weeping sore of the Chinese invasion could be prevented, and America kept from being hostile, etc.

Given more time, Taiwan may well end up Japanese (i.e. viewed essentially as another Home Island), that would bump up Japanese power.

If Japan took Taiwan from the Dutch before the Chinese got really going there, Taiwan would now be as Japanese as, say, Okinawa.

Taking the Philippines might be possible, might be a step too far. Certainly it'd be tough to Nipponize them.

Treating Korea better, so Korea actually accepted Japanese rule would help. Don't know if there's any plausible PoD there...
 
This all depends on what's ment by "better off".

Some various thoughts...

Better Off = Japan keeps Korea and Taiwan:
Indig insurgencies will pop up.
Japan's unlikely to hold them.
Sino-Japanese wars and Pacific war have to be removed somehow...

Better Off = Japan doesn't suffer from the collapse of the bubble and the lost decade:
Involves messing around with internal institutions and cultural mores - very tricky, but could be interesting

Better Off = Japan is more liberal/a true democracy:
Easiest way to get there if to butterfly away Korea and allow SCAP to carry out it's reforms, and assume that the reforms would have worked out well.
This is one of my fave pet theories.
If it works out right, you get a workable Scandinavian-Scocialist system with a pacifist state.
 
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