Cook
Banned
The Bf 109 first flew in 1935 and the Bloch 150 in 1936, both with cannon and both with constant speed propellers. That the Hurricane and Spitfire went to war lacking both really was inexcusable.
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A better Hawker Hurricane
- Thread starter EAF602Whizz
- Start date
Well the 109 had cannons only in the body (not in the wings as in the Hurricane and Spitfire), and the Bloch 150 had (at least according to wikipedia) poor weapons reliability, a problem too of the early cannon armed Spits and Hurries, due (in their cases, if not that of the 150) to the not-yet-ruggedised nature of the HS.404, which tended to jam if the wings flexed too much.
There would have been little purpose in doing more than tweaking the Hurricane. Camm well knew it was as far as the concept would really go and he was working on the Tornado before the Hurricane was in service.
For pre war quasi bubble canopies see the Wellesley, Gloster 5/34 and the 1940 Miles M20 so it could have been done. A longer fuselage, reinstated retractable tailwheel and metal control surfaces etc. were possible. Reworking the cooling with the standard Merlin power egg has it's points and getting a universal MkIV wing would have improved it's versatility.
The 8 MMG armament was quite effective in 1939/40 until the Luftwaffe started increasing their armour. It was not until 1942 that it became a real problem and the universal wing would take 12 MMG.
I am not a rocket projectile fan myself (not made in 1940 also) but I am a fan of the 40mm Vickers with HE and Huribombers with this built into the wings with a proper ammunition supply would be my ground attack choice and a seriously bad day if your aeroplane is hit by one.
With the MkIV wing and the will it is quite conceivable that the Hurricane could have replaced the Battle in the AAF tactical strike role in France in 1940 especially with a low level optimised Merlin, but that would have needed serious hindsight. The Battle was designed as the maximum medium bomber size under proposed (but never adopted) treaty limits.
The Hercules was never an early war alternative to the Merlin, and the Battle Merlins would have been better used in Hurribombers but could the Napier Dagger have been a supplement at lower levels? Perhaps Dagger Hurribombers and Merlin Hurricanes? The Dagger never was the problem engine myth would have us believe.
Meteors were a mid war on issue, after the Hurricane was a serious contender. Although worn Merlins were recycled as Meteors in the early days when Meteor production was inadequate.
So, perhaps we could have a scenario where the AAF can give effective light bombing support to the BEF in 1940 and act as low level fighters in addition to the OTL fighter squadrons. If you can get the French Air Force to commit itself fully then the Luftwaffe has a real fight on it's hands over the Battle of France.
For pre war quasi bubble canopies see the Wellesley, Gloster 5/34 and the 1940 Miles M20 so it could have been done. A longer fuselage, reinstated retractable tailwheel and metal control surfaces etc. were possible. Reworking the cooling with the standard Merlin power egg has it's points and getting a universal MkIV wing would have improved it's versatility.
The 8 MMG armament was quite effective in 1939/40 until the Luftwaffe started increasing their armour. It was not until 1942 that it became a real problem and the universal wing would take 12 MMG.
I am not a rocket projectile fan myself (not made in 1940 also) but I am a fan of the 40mm Vickers with HE and Huribombers with this built into the wings with a proper ammunition supply would be my ground attack choice and a seriously bad day if your aeroplane is hit by one.
With the MkIV wing and the will it is quite conceivable that the Hurricane could have replaced the Battle in the AAF tactical strike role in France in 1940 especially with a low level optimised Merlin, but that would have needed serious hindsight. The Battle was designed as the maximum medium bomber size under proposed (but never adopted) treaty limits.
The Hercules was never an early war alternative to the Merlin, and the Battle Merlins would have been better used in Hurribombers but could the Napier Dagger have been a supplement at lower levels? Perhaps Dagger Hurribombers and Merlin Hurricanes? The Dagger never was the problem engine myth would have us believe.
Meteors were a mid war on issue, after the Hurricane was a serious contender. Although worn Merlins were recycled as Meteors in the early days when Meteor production was inadequate.
So, perhaps we could have a scenario where the AAF can give effective light bombing support to the BEF in 1940 and act as low level fighters in addition to the OTL fighter squadrons. If you can get the French Air Force to commit itself fully then the Luftwaffe has a real fight on it's hands over the Battle of France.
Cook
Banned
No one else has mentioned it yet I don’t think: Fuel Injection. The early Hurricanes (and Spitfires) had a carburettor; they’re hindered by changes in air temperature, did not provide the same amount of fuel to all cylinders and, worst of all for an aircraft manoeuvring in combat, needed positive Gees to work; if the engine was subjected to negative Gees in a dive it would lose power. The result is the classic half role before diving that RAF pilots had to do (and that we’ve all seen a hundred times watching re-runs of The Battle of Britain); it was slow, clumsy and worst of all predictable. Meanwhile, the pilot of a Bf-109 simply pushed the stick forward and dove, with power throughout the flying envelope; all thanks to Rudolf Diesel’s fuel injection system.
The first operational Bf-109 had no cannons at all. Just the two deck mounted 7.92 mm guns and a third mounted in the engine, fireing through the axel of the propellor. Later models, such as the E variant of 1939, got two 20mm FF cannons in the wings, dropping the axel mounted weapon, which was reintroduced back in the F serries. From the F-Serries on the cannon in the engine grew in size, from 15mm MG-151/15 of Mauser, to the 20mm MG151/20 of the same company and later the 30mm MK-108 of Rheinmetal, although the larger MK-103 of 30mm was innitially selected, but dropped, due to its problems of its weight in the small airframe. (only the Bf-109K-8 carried it for a while)
Well if we go with Just Leo's suggestions on the fuselage, add a Hercules or Napier Dagger engine instead of the Merlin, cannons and a bubble cockpit, it's not a Hurricane anymore. A better aircraft undoubtedly but a new name would be in order.
How about the Monsoon?
Another question would be what role this plane would play. Ground attack? FAA fighter?
How about the Monsoon?
Another question would be what role this plane would play. Ground attack? FAA fighter?
The most one could accomplish probably is that the OTL improvements are done earlier. The all-metal wing instead of the fabric-covered one earlier would be quite easy. The metal-covered wings improved diving speed and such. OTL IIRC several of the fabric-covered wings equipped Hurricanes saw combat. Possibly the Merlin could have been upgraded earlier/more quickly? Having the Merlin XX earlier would be great. Bolting the racks to the wings earlier would also have been great; besides doubling the Hurricanes as fighterbombers, it also allowed droptanks which doubled the fuel carried.
Having a cannon with a few rounds was great for some aces, such as Saburo Sakai. However, 90% of the pilots was better off with more rounds and more guns in a smaller calibre, especially with the early misconceptions about firing range in combat. Having 8 x .303 meant one was very heavily armed in 1939/1940, especially if you look at the evolution of fighters prior to the Hurricane (Gloster Gladiator started with just 2 x .303)
An obvious change to improve pilot survivability is to do something about the 28 gallon header fuel tank that sat just ahead of the cockpit. in the event of a fire this location resulted in a jet of flame into the cockpit through the instrument panel causing severe burns to the pilot.
Well the process of purchasing and modifying the Hispano-Suiza HS.404 for RAF service was a complete fiasco thanks to pointless delays and bureaucratic fumbling. You don't even need a major point of departure, just getting people to pull their fingers out and act on things in a timely manner would probably be enough to have it see service in the Battle of Britain. Yet another example of how the British government seemingly attempted to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I swear if you wrote a timeline where they actually took commonsense decisions and stopped faffing about it would look ridiculously close to Brit-wank territory in places compared to our timeline. But best stop there or I'll start going on an extended rant.
Whilst the Hispano 20mm could indeed have been sorted out easlier but it is not as easy as one might imagine to convert a cannon, designed to use a drum feed and be rigidly bolted to an engine block and convert it to belt feed in a freezing environment and mounted to a flexible wing. That was why the Beaufighter and Whirlwind were preferred carriers. They mounted them onto a rigid fuselage and used the drums.
The Americans were still cocking up the 20mm Hispano even into the post war period.
I suspect that, if the Sea Hurricane were purpose made with folding wings etc., then the RN could have it as a standard fighter, light strike machine and would push for it's continuing development. Hawker had done a Griffon transplant as a design exercise.
As a production machine the Hurricane was far easier than the Spitfire. As long as you had invested in the special rolling machines. The Belgians and Yugoslavs had no problems. However the Spitfire just needed jigs and huge amounts of labour. This is why Spitfires are easier to restore these days and why only one firm can do the full job on Hurricanes after risking their financial existence on recreating the rolling machines using the last known bits (from RSA IIRC.)
The Americans were still cocking up the 20mm Hispano even into the post war period.
I suspect that, if the Sea Hurricane were purpose made with folding wings etc., then the RN could have it as a standard fighter, light strike machine and would push for it's continuing development. Hawker had done a Griffon transplant as a design exercise.
As a production machine the Hurricane was far easier than the Spitfire. As long as you had invested in the special rolling machines. The Belgians and Yugoslavs had no problems. However the Spitfire just needed jigs and huge amounts of labour. This is why Spitfires are easier to restore these days and why only one firm can do the full job on Hurricanes after risking their financial existence on recreating the rolling machines using the last known bits (from RSA IIRC.)
Diesel's fuel injection blew. Bobby Bosch developed the fuel injection systems used in German aircraft, and Herr Diesel's later diesels. The Bendix-Stromberg single-point pumper carb would have, and did solve many of the problems, and eventually equipped some later R-R engines. From the same United Aircraft that produced the Hamilton Standard constant-speed propellors.
Other points: The Napier Dagger engine never produced advertised horsepower because it would have over-heated. See: Martin-Baker MB-2.
.50 MGs would have been a vast improvement on the .303 in any case. I recall reports from German pilots who were terrified by the sound of .303 rounds pelting their aircraft. Like a bucketful of rocks on a tin roof. They shouldn't have been able to report anything. Except from a POW camp.
A possible name for the revised Hurri would be the Hawker Hemorrhoid, what with being a potential pain in the ass for Mr H. I would be tempted to say that a revised Hurri is ASB because Sir Sydney didn't seem to accept advice readily.
I dunno I think we ought to keep with the wind/storm theme.
I'm considering nicking some of these ideas for the second draft of the Mers El Kebir Resolution.
I'm considering nicking some of these ideas for the second draft of the Mers El Kebir Resolution.
Indeed, this is the man that had to have Rolls-Royce invite him down to their facilities for IIRC a couple of days of indoctrination before he would think about using jet engines instead of piston ones in his designs. Mind you he then gave us planes such as the Hunter and before that the Sea Fury so all is forgiven. I think if you want any major revisions then you need to have them added as feedback from the prototypes or directly in the design stage, any later and since he was already working on the Typhoon I could see them shuffled off to that with the Hurricane only receiving incremental upgrades.
Moving the fueltank there has both advantages and disadvantages. Lindbergh for example specifically moved the fuel tank to just ahead of his cockpit in the Spirit of St.-Louis. He did this to make the fuel tank his crash zone, instead of the other way around.
amphibulous
Banned
Asking for the early Spitfire to have 20mm is a bit too much; .50 cal machines guns might have been possible.
Either of these would be of enormous benefit to Fighter Command in BoB.Tentrees said:
And dead easy.Some more-unusual ideas, perhaps? What about changing to a paddle-bladed prop? (Or is that outside the OP?) Or wingtip tanks, to increase range, as well as decrease tip vortices & drag? Wing leading-edge fuel tanks (per the P-38J or -L, IIRC)?
And something that may be ASB, given the state of aerodynamic science: flush airscoop inlets (boundary layer scoops, aka NACA ducts). You get the benefits of the air filters & such, but not the drag...
I kind of like the idea of a switch to the Hercules, but IMO that's not a Hurricane any more.
How much extra speed, do you suppose?
This sounds really interesting...yulzari said:
Maybe it's ASB, but could Hurrys (Spits, too, I suppose) have fired UPs (rockets) into German formations in BoB?yulzari said:
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Cook
Banned
I highlighted the Bloch because it was the oldest of the French fighters that saw service in 1940 and had been a contemporary to the Hurricane during their development, as had been the Bf 109.
I checked my file and found that I had named my Hurricane revision the "Sirocco".
The Dagger also failed in the Handley-Page Hereford, a re-engined Hampden originally powered by Pegasus.