A better and deadlier German navy?
- Thread starter SCOUT 5249
- Start date
Deleted member 94680
Exactly this. Until the War is won (I know, I know) and War with an isolated United States (again, I know) is on the agenda, Carriers are a waste of tonnage and metal.
Bismarck? The Atlantic, by battleships, torpedoes from British Surface ships and scuttling charges from inside.
Scharnhost? North of Norway, by a battleship, 4 cruisers and 9 destroyers
The He112 would be improved hopefully match the hell cat and corsair. The 87 that would soon be replaced.
The only issue? The He112 landing gear it's going to take time for the navy pilots to get used to it.
BlackDragon98
Banned
The landing gear was fine.
In the original competition against the Bf 109, the He 112's landing gear was noted to be far more robust than the Bf 109's.
He 100?
Deleted member 94680
The uselessness of the Bismarck and the debacle of her end should not be used as justification for pointless Carriers.
Kriegsmarine should have went with a Coastal Defense Navy. They were never going to succeed in winning by Commerce raiding.
Going hard on U-boats could be done if they also have enough of a fleet in being to keep a significant part of Royal Navy capital ships in home waters. And that fleet in being has no need of carriers since it should never sortie out into the Atlantic. Some scary battleships will do, just don't get tempted to go and raid convoys.
Going hard on U-boats could be done if they also have enough of a fleet in being to keep a significant part of Royal Navy capital ships in home waters. And that fleet in being has no need of carriers since it should never sortie out into the Atlantic. Some scary battleships will do, just don't get tempted to go and raid convoys.
That is one option for Germany,
Don’t have any major surface units.
Don’t see it happening,....nation pride, symbolism and Hitler, will demand a surface fleet.
I am not proposing a Bismarck, but better armed twins. The most successful of the KM. Without them, no Norway, no iron ore, no war. KM surface units protected the ore route for most of the war, and prevented interdiction by RN surface fleet.
The other butterfly effect is the RN focus on small ships over fleet unit with no surface KM threat, it plays into GB anti-sub and u-boat defeat.
Bismarck was deployed unsupported (except when with PZ sinking Hood). It had no airpower to counter air and cruiser surveillance, no air cover, no counter air strike. The very things that RN used to locate and slow here, for surface destruction.
Hence why I propose operating as “twins” with a light carrier (and fleet destroyers).
Forget national pride. Not having any major surface units means Royal Navy capital ships have no need to stay in Britain and so can relocate to Mediterranean and the Pacific (while building as many ASW escorts as possible in Britain). Which might be plus for Germany but is bad news for Italy and Japan.
Not surface raiding at all but keeping the threat open is the best move for Germany. Without the threat the Royal Navy can just leave but surface raiding isn't likely to have major success (also is an obsolete strategy in general anyway) so attempting it is only costing you fuel, ammunition and more should the ship get damaged (men, resources needed to repair, time).
Also Germany didn't really win at Norway through their own merits (significant damage to major fleet units, loss of 3 cruisers and most of the destroyer flotilla sinking is pretty bad). It is just that Allies definitely lost.
If you are raiding you can't really have a large fleet around. Surface commerce raiding is almost entirely a solo job.
Also I would argue Radar was far more important in tracking Bismarck then Planes (thought Ark Royal's swordfishes jamming her rudder came in quite handy). But prey tell what would a carrier hanging around on the German side in Rheinübung would change? Weather was quite bad for air operations at the time and Germans don't have the experience the British have in operating carriers. There is no way they could be deck parked due to weather, so launching fighters immediately after detecting RN planes would be impossible. So a Carrier following Bismarck (or another Battleship in a similar condition) closely would not add much against an enemy air attack other than some extra AA guns and another target, which might split their attack. Unless you are suggesting they keep up non-stop CAP through the entire voyage. Also since basically the entire Royal Navy was out there I wonder what part of it your theoretical air counterattack would choose as a target (Battleships? Which one? Carriers? Again which one? First British ship they see?). Also Hood and PoW were supposed to have destroyer escort but the sea state didn't allow it. There is no way German destroyers could accompany Bismarck/Twins in the same environment (Kriegsmarine isn't very famous at seakeeping at any rate).
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Hitler doesn’t care, Germany first.
The threat has to real to be countered. Norway was a strategic victory. Germany got its steel, GB lost the chance to end the war.
The swordfish should not have been able to launch at that time, according to the book, but found a way. It cuts both ways.
It does not need a continuous CAP, but continuous observation. Situation awareness was a significant limitation on the operation. Remember Glorious
PoW and Hood were steaming fast to intercept, very different to Bismarck.
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Deleted member 94680
Hitler should care about winning. Hitler didn’t really care about the Navy anyway. Wasting several cruisers and destroyers worth of steel and man hours in building the twins and anything like Bismarck is stupid. Build a coastal navy to defend the Baltic shore and look to NGFS when attacking the Baltics and possibly Leningrad when it’s time for Barbarossa. Otherwise, U-boats and S-Boats can be cranked out when war is inevitable or already started.
Part 3
Torpedo carriers.
Design a fast reliable 450mm coastal shipping attack torpedo. Use “enhanced oxygen” (38%+) over long lance 100%. Not as good, but don’t need surgical clean grease free fittings. Double energy gives double range or 50% more speed or mix. With 3/4 the bubble wake. Use impact fuse as many coastal steamers are still wooden (non-magnetic), and waters too shallow for under hull shots.
Instead of type II u-boats with 3 x 530mm, build a coastal /training sub for continental shelf operations. Have 4 x 450mm, and bigger battery. Not an electro boat, but half way, to increase underwater range pre-radar. A snort for crew air only and HF sonar to navigate minefields.
A sub to spend long periods on bottom, in shallowed mined waters, near shipping choke points with fast torpedos focused on smaller ships, but still damage major units.
The same 450mm would used on S-boats. Instead of 2-4 530mm (“overkill” in most cases), have S-boats carry 4-6 450mm.
Germany needs a robust aerial torpedo. The same 450mm could be (??) developed to give LW at KM expense.
With an effective and mass produced “small” sub, KM build a larger fleet boat. Larger battery but not an electro boat. A fast surface boat, but with longer or faster underwater options.
Have a solid battery of 6 530mm tubes forward, for fast enhanced oxygen torpedos. Instead of a single rear tube of Type VII, have twin 450mm, closer to Type IX. Better anti-escort salvos and finish off weapon.
Later, as acoustic torpedos develop, the rear 450mm have the option of fast “dumb” or slow “smart” torpedos salvos. Counters such as combing and “side step” become very difficult against “down the throat” offensive defence.
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Bad idea to have two different types and szes of torpedoes on a single hull. Standardise the armament will bring more profit normally, as making logistics much easier in both supply and productio of torpedoes, meaning: more cna be available at any time, rather than having a split up weaponsystem tha will cause headages to the logistical department
So: Just stick to the already standard torpedo size, just build this torpedo in standard variations internally and in capabilities, but not the weapon itself. The basical weapon will share many components with their variations, just the function will differ, either in propuslion, electronics, or purpose.
Deleted member 94680
I mentioned them, but mainly in a “quantity is it’s own quality” kind of way. As in build more of them and they could well be more effective in the Baltic, Scandinavia and possibly the Channel. They’re not going to win the War or anything wankish, but as a use of resources, a well staffed and stocked “Schnellboot Kommando” is probably more use than the twins or the pocket battleships.
[QUOTE="HMS Warspite, post: 21073399,
So: Just stick to the already standard torpedo size, just build this torpedo in standard variations internally and in capabilities, but not the weapon itself. The basical weapon will share many components with their variations, just the function will differ, either in propuslion, electronics, or purpose.
[/QUOTE]
Germany is extremely resource limited. Anything to reduce pressure on this is significant.
Yes, the 450 & 550 should have as much commonality. But there was a great variety of 550mm, so logistically is complex already.
Soviet submarines adopted twin caliber tubes post wars. It maximised the space in the highly “tetra” world of sub design.
So: Just stick to the already standard torpedo size, just build this torpedo in standard variations internally and in capabilities, but not the weapon itself. The basical weapon will share many components with their variations, just the function will differ, either in propuslion, electronics, or purpose.
[/QUOTE]
Germany is extremely resource limited. Anything to reduce pressure on this is significant.
Yes, the 450 & 550 should have as much commonality. But there was a great variety of 550mm, so logistically is complex already.
Soviet submarines adopted twin caliber tubes post wars. It maximised the space in the highly “tetra” world of sub design.
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What's the point in using fancy long-range/high speed torpedos to sink basic coastal freighters? They'd seem to be right at the bottom of the priority list.
Grey Wolf
Donor
The Graf Zeppelin was built, it was basically complete. Putting it into service would have made some difference for sure