A BETTER ALLIED AIRCRAFT CARRIER PERFORMANCE IN WW2

[ghappy1000]

What if, the Allies had a better aircraft carrier performance? [draft]
2ND POD: On 13 November 1941, a destroyer escorting HMS Ark Royal managed to depth charge the submarine before it fired its torpedoes.
December 1941 to January 1942: Ark Royal manages to deliver aircraft to Malta. The Royal Navy doesn't send more carriers to the Far East than otl.
February 1942: Because of the extra carrier, Britain doesn't send the Eagle for the time being.
March 1942: The USS Wasp wouldn't be required by the British to send aircraft to Malta, so she goes to the Pacific.
4 June 1942:With the extra carrier, the Americans manage to sink the Hiryu at the same time as the other three Japanese carriers. The Yorktown isn't sunk in this scenario because it wouldn't be crippled and found by I 168.
3RD POD: The US uses all its carriers to fight the Japanese:
23 August 1942: At the Battle of Eastern Solomons, the US has 4 carriers [Enterprise, Saratoga, Hornet and Wasp ] . The Japanese has Shokaku, Zuikaku, Ryujo, Zuiho and Junyo. In the battle, the US manage to sink all the large [three] Japanese carriers for the loss of Enterprise and Saratoga.
Effects ?

 

[Some Bloke]

Maybe the RN send more carriers eatwards later, perhaps once the deliveries at Malta are complete.

Ark Royal gets sent eastward, is present with the fleet during the Easter Sunday raid and Somerville gets his night strike after all. Well this is better Allied carrier performance right?

 

[mattep74]

What if, the Allies had a better aircraft carrier performance? [draft]

I wouldnt say they were bad in their performance. If it was any better it would be a wank

 

[rob2001]

1944

It would mean three less carriers for the Japanese in 1944. Also Santa Cruz was fought in October 1942, not August 1942.

 

[ghappy1000]

15 September 1942: The USS Wasp was sunk as per otl. This time, the reason for calling off the engagement was because the Japanese brought the Yamato along with them.
26 October 1942: The Battle of Santa Cruz. The butterflies mean that Hiyo is being maintained more properly and could fight. The US has Hornet and Yorktown [ not sunk in this tl]. The Japanese have Hiyo, Zuiho and Ryujo. In the battle, the Japanese lose Yamato , Hiyo and Ryujo. The US loses Hornet and Yorktown.
15 November 1942: The Japanese commit Kongo and Haruna to the fight for Guadalcanal and lose them. The Japanese manage to bombard Henderson but they had only 6 troop transports left [due to butterflies] and the troops landed were insufficient to attack the Americans.
30 November 1942: The Japanese decide to evacuate Guadalcanal. Tassafaronga happens as per otl.

 

[ghappy1000]

It would mean three less carriers for the Japanese in 1944. Also Santa Cruz was fought in October 1942, not August 1942.

Perhaps, Unryu might be sunk by USS Cavalla? And, the otl Japanese anti submarine performance was poor, it probably would be even worse in this tl because the Japanese had to build more aircraft carriers [or finish them faster].

 

[Derek Pullem]

15 September 1942: The USS Wasp was sunk as per otl. This time, the reason for calling off the engagement was because the Japanese brought the Yamato along with them.
26 October 1942: The Battle of Santa Cruz. The butterflies mean that Hiyo is being maintained more properly and could fight. The US has Hornet and Yorktown [ not sunk in this tl]. The Japanese have Hiyo, Zuiho and Ryujo. In the battle, the Japanese lose Yamato , Hiyo and Ryujo. The US loses Hornet and Yorktown.
15 November 1942: The Japanese commit Kongo and Haruna to the fight for Guadalcanal and lose them. The Japanese manage to bombard Henderson but they had only 6 troop transports left [due to butterflies] and the troops landed were insufficient to attack the Americans.
30 November 1942: The Japanese decide to evacuate Guadalcanal. Tassafaronga happens as per otl.

Yamato?

Unlikely to be sunk with the forces available to the US - even if it was torpedoed.

 

[ghappy1000]

Yamato?

Unlikely to be sunk with the forces available to the US - even if it was torpedoed.

How about damaged?

 

[Derek Pullem]

How about damaged?

Of course but the physical robustness of the Yamato was such that 300 planes and 11 torpedo hits and 7 bombs was required to sink her. Her sister ship required 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs

You just aren't going to get those strike rates from two carriers if they are targetting the enemy carriers first.

The USN wanted to send six battleships against a lone Yamato if a surface action was required.

 

[ghappy1000]

In Europe:
The situation is similar to otl from 1942 onwards in the Mediterranean and remains otl for the Atlantic . Meanwhile, the Ark Royal, along with Eagle, provided air cover for the HARPOON convoy. The Tarnimbar isn't sunk in this scenario.
11 August 1942: HMS Ark Royal sunk by U 73. There are about 500 casualties when three torpedoes sank it in ten minutes. The survivors are picked up by a cruiser. The aircraft from the carrier ditched overboard or landed on HMS Furious. The carrier Eagle [ still used to cover the important convoy] managed to save HMS Indomitable and HMS Foresight from damage.

 

[ghappy1000]

Of course but the physical robustness of the Yamato was such that 300 planes and 11 torpedo hits and 7 bombs was required to sink her. Her sister ship required 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs

You just aren't going to get those strike rates from two carriers if they are targetting the enemy carriers first.

The USN wanted to send six battleships against a lone Yamato if a surface action was required.

There are battleships escorting the carriers. And, if the Japanese don't want surface action, one or two torpedoes should be enough as Yamato would have to return to Japan for repairs [stopping at Truk on the way]. In fact, the otl torpedo hit on Yamato in December 1943 put her out of service for about two months. I think it would be out of action for about the same time as well.

 

[CalBear]

Of course but the physical robustness of the Yamato was such that 300 planes and 11 torpedo hits and 7 bombs was required to sink her. Her sister ship required 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs

You just aren't going to get those strike rates from two carriers if they are targetting the enemy carriers first.

The USN wanted to send six battleships against a lone Yamato if a surface action was required.

More importantly, those torpedoes were the redesigned Mod 5 or later versions of the Mark 13. The weapons available in October of 1942 were still the far less reliable and fragile Mod 1. It is unlikely that even the raid sent to kill the Yamato IOTL would have had 1/3 as many good hits.

 

[CalBear]

What if, the Allies had a better aircraft carrier performance? [draft]
1st POD: On 13 November 1941, a destroyer escorting HMS Ark Royal managed to depth charge the submarine before it fired its torpedoes.
December 1941 to January 1942: Ark Royal manages to deliver aircraft to Malta. The Royal Navy doesn't send more carriers to the Far East than otl.
February 1942: Because of the extra carrier, Britain doesn't send the Eagle for the time being.
March 1942: The USS Wasp wouldn't be required by the British to send aircraft to Malta, so she goes to the Pacific.
4 June 1942:With the extra carrier, the Americans manage to sink the Hiryu at the same time as the other three Japanese carriers. The Yorktown isn't sunk in this scenario because it wouldn't be crippled and found by I 168.
2nd POD: The US uses all its carriers to fight the Japanese:
23 August 1942: At the Battle of Eastern Solomons, the US has 4 carriers [Enterprise, Saratoga, Hornet and Wasp ] . The Japanese has Shokaku, Zuikaku, Ryujo, Zuiho and Junyo. In the battle, the US manage to sink all the large [three] Japanese carriers for the loss of Enterprise and Saratoga.
Effects ?

There would have, quite literally, have been no impact on the end of the war in either theater. The WAllies would have had fewer casualties, with different individuals being killed (which always creates butterflies down the road since dead men are no alive, something that has incalculable impact on the following generations), and actions in the Solomons may well have been less dramatic with additional decks, but overall combat operations are unchanged.

The results at Midway are likely to be unchanged. The Hiryu survived due to the scattering of the Kido Butai formation during the running series of strikes from Midway that put her far enough out of position that the only squadron that stumbled over her was VT-3, not any lack of American aircraft on the primary strike. Even if Yorktown survived Midway, she was going to be in Bremerton for long term repairs until at least early 1943

If anything the U.S. is worse off post ATL Santa Cruz. Trading the Saratoga, with her huge aircraft capacity, for the undersized Wasp is no bargain. It will have no impact on the end game, but switching out a 36,000 ton (standard) 33 knot carrier for a 14,000 ton, 29.5 knot ship isn't any version of good.

As long as the U.S. is in control of the Marianas by late summer of 1944, maybe even late fall, the Pacific War ends the same way, probably on the same day. The only thing that changes that result is a slightly faster or slower Manhattan.

 

[The Knight]

A slightly earlier pod, but what if the Royal Navy protecetd the Courageous and Glorious better? They could joun Furious in running aircraft to Gibralter and release other ships for other duties?

 

[sparky42]

A slightly earlier pod, but what if the Royal Navy protecetd the Courageous and Glorious better? They could joun Furious in running aircraft to Gibralter and release other ships for other duties?

Given that both of them carried another squadron over Furious I'd say that they would be used more aggressively instead of Eagle for example.

 

[ghappy1000]

There would have, quite literally, have been no impact on the end of the war in either theater. The WAllies would have had fewer casualties, with different individuals being killed (which always creates butterflies down the road since dead men are no alive, something that has incalculable impact on the following generations), and actions in the Solomons may well have been less dramatic with additional decks, but overall combat operations are unchanged.

The results at Midway are likely to be unchanged. The Hiryu survived due to the scattering of the Kido Butai formation during the running series of strikes from Midway that put her far enough out of position that the only squadron that stumbled over her was VT-3, not any lack of American aircraft on the primary strike. Even if Yorktown survived Midway, she was going to be in Bremerton for long term repairs until at least early 1943

If anything the U.S. is worse off post ATL Santa Cruz. Trading the Saratoga, with her huge aircraft capacity, for the undersized Wasp is no bargain. It will have no impact on the end game, but switching out a 36,000 ton (standard) 33 knot carrier for a 14,000 ton, 29.5 knot ship isn't any version of good.

As long as the U.S. is in control of the Marianas by late summer of 1944, maybe even late fall, the Pacific War ends the same way, probably on the same day. The only thing that changes that result is a slightly faster or slower Manhattan.

Maybe the Wasp manages to hit Hiryu just in time.

 

[ghappy1000]

1943
Initially, the situation is similar to otl. However, with a lack of carriers, the Japanese lose more pilots.The Nisshin's last mission is cancelled because of the need to obtain more carriers.
Reverse Pearl Harbour:
In December 1943, the Americans, due to the Japanese lack of carriers, decided to raid Truk earlier than otl.On 10 February 1944, the Americans launched an airstrike on Truk [they kept the news secret to prevent the Japanese from getting knowledge]. The attack sinks 3 light cruisers [Agano, Naka and Katori], 2 heavy cruisers, 10 destroyers, 5 subchasers, 5 other auxillary warships[ Akitsushima, Akagi maru, Heian maru, repair ship Akashi and Fujikawa maru], plus many merchant ships.

 

[ghappy1000]

19 June 1944: The Battle of the Philippine Sea. The Japanese selected the Mariana islands as the site of their decisive battle. They had 8 carriers compared to 16 American .The USS Cavalla sank the Unryu and at dawn the next day, US aircraft sank Hosho and Chiyoda. The Japanese lost 600 aircraft in the battle.
23 to 26 October 1944: The Battle of Leyte Gulf. On 22 October 1944, the Japanese fleet sortied to attack the Leyte 'invasion' forces. On 23 October, two US submarines torpedoed and sank three heavy cruisers [as per otl]. The next day, Yamato was sunk by carrier torpedoes and vice admiral Kurita drowns. On 25 October 1944, the Japanese lose 2 heavy cruisers off Samar. They press on with their attack but soon, Oldendorf intercepts them. Later, TF 34 also comes to attack the Japanese battleships. When the battle has finished,the Japanese had lost 5 carriers, 5 battleships [Musashi, Kirishima, Fuso, Yamashiro and Yamato], all their heavy cruisers, 5 light cruisers and 15 destroyers, although inflicting moderate but replaceable losses to the Americans.

 

[ghappy1000]

A slightly earlier pod, but what if the Royal Navy protecetd the Courageous and Glorious better? They could joun Furious in running aircraft to Gibralter and release other ships for other duties?

Okay, maybe I'll think of adding that.
1st POD: The Admiralty doesn't waste HMS Courageous on anti submarine duties and it wasn't sunk.
March 1940: The Admiralty doesn't use HMS Glorious for the Norwegian Campaign. The Norwegian Campaign goes as per otl.
8 June 1940: Instead of Glorious, Courageous is sunk by German battlecruisers.
11 November 1940: The raid on Taranto puts the Vittorio Veneto as well as the Conte Di Cavour out of action for good due to extra torpedo planes.
10 January 1941: The Illustrious avoids bombing due to the better anti aircraft defences.
26 May 1941: HMS Formidable and HMS Warspite avoid damage by bombs off Crete.
13 December 1941: Littorio torpedoed and damaged.
18 December 1941: Italian divers damage HMS Valiant and sink HMS Glorious.

 

[CalBear]

19 June 1944: The Battle of the Philippine Sea. The Japanese selected the Mariana islands as the site of their decisive battle. They had 8 carriers compared to 16 American .The Taiho was sunk by USS Albacore after being hit by a torpedo due to poor damage control. The USS Cavalla sank the Unryu and at dawn the next day, US aircraft sank Hosho and Chiyoda. The Japanese lost 600 aircraft in the battle.
23 to 26 October 1944: The Battle of Leyte Gulf. On 22 October 1944, the Japanese fleet sortied to attack the Leyte 'invasion' forces. On 23 October, two US submarines torpedoed and sank three heavy cruisers [as per otl]. The next day, Yamato was sunk by carrier torpedoes and vice admiral Kurita drowns. On 25 October 1944, the Japanese lose 2 heavy cruisers off Samar. They press on with their attack but soon, Oldendorf intercepts them. Later, TF 34 also comes to attack the Japanese battleships. When the battle has finished,the Japanese had lost 5 carriers, 5 battleships [Musashi, Kirishima, Fuso, Yamashiro and Yamato], all their heavy cruisers, 5 light cruisers and 15 destroyers, although inflicting moderate but replaceable losses to the Americans.

Just a note - You are falling into one of the classic traps of AH timelines. Massive changes in 1942, virtually no changes in 1944 despite the changes in the T/L. As an example, what are the odds that Taiho is still in the exact right spot, at the exact right time to be sunk as the result of a single torpedo hit when a hit 75 feet away, in either direction is likely to have failed to cause the fatal vapor leak or that Cavalla winds up in perfect firing position on yet a second carrier? The IJN sorties an hour earlier or later and those subs miss the rather limited attack window.

Something to think about in future T/L.