9th Australian Div in Europe

Okay, but in my discussions with people from New Zealand on the country's role in WWII, they have said that WWII is viewed as war of choice in New Zealand and that they did not view the Japanese as a threat in the way the Australians did, mainly because of simple geography. In that sense I think it would be a lot harder to create a POD where an Australian division is kept in Europe without significant changes in the course of the Pacific War.

Please correct me if I am wrong on this point.

There certainly is some measure of truth in this, particularly given the midget subs in Sydney and the regular bombing of Darwin well into 1943. There's a big difference between knowing the Japanese are a threat and having them bomb your country.
 
When the IJA and IJN agree invading Australia is a stupid idea ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_Japanese_invasion_of_Australia_during_World_War_II ), you know it was impossible.

Aussie and Kiwi hysteria of the time is comprehensible, but also a sign of the weaknesses of the dominion state apparatuses—and a source of economic misallocation. The continued rhetoric today ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Australia ) has some serious nationalist bents, but reflect more on a right wing desire to order commemoration and culture, much like Howard's ANZAC day was designed to replace a commemoration that had slipped into disuse or rape of Cairo recreations with a CEW Bean-esque mythos.
 
There certainly is some measure of truth in this, particularly given the midget subs in Sydney and the regular bombing of Darwin well into 1943. There's a big difference between knowing the Japanese are a threat and having them bomb your country.
Considering Japanese subs were operating around NZ and in the Cook Straight, and they flew reconnaissance flights over both Wellington, and Auckland the difference in the perceived threat may not be as great as you think, also consider that Japanese activity just next door in Australia (Sydney, and Darwin) would make the threat to New Zealand seem greater.
Certainly the threat was taken seriously by the New Zealand Government. The army changed it's training so new recruits were taught to shot before they were taught to march, Guerilla warfare training was give, and research was carried out into native foods that could be used to feed Guerilla fighters. Airforce recruits waiting for flight training received infantry training and would be used as infantry if the invasion happened before they got to flight training. The 2nd NZ Div in the Middle East didn't receive any reinforcements for IIRC 9-12 months. Old rifles were converted into poor LMG's, bulldozers were converted into crap tanks, and trucks into armoured cars, various other small arms were being produced in small quantities, and one offs for the defense of New Zealand including SMGs and Mortars. Families were hiding food in the bush so they could escape if the Japanese suddenly landed. Demolitions, and road blocks were set up. Apparently the field gun beside the Cambridge Cenotaph was taken away and buried because of concerns that the Japanese would think it was a military target and bomb it, the gun was never recovered.
 
Just envisaged a cross between Dad's Army and Footrot Flats. Imagine Dog in a tin hat, Cooch living off the land, and Wal competing with the GIs for the affections of Cheeky Hobson.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
So if an ANZAC Corps was raised with one Australian Division, and one NZ Division then maybe Freyberg could end up in command.

From memory Freyberg raised the matter when there were a lot more Aussies in theatre. Besides, Freyberg was a Brit, otherwise he wouldn't have been put in charge in Crete! ;););)
More seriously, I doubt he was looking forward to managing the situation from either direction.
 
Considering Japanese subs were operating around NZ and in the Cook Straight, and they flew reconnaissance flights over both Wellington, and Auckland the difference in the perceived threat may not be as great as you think, also consider that Japanese activity just next door in Australia (Sydney, and Darwin) would make the threat to New Zealand seem greater.
Certainly the threat was taken seriously by the New Zealand Government. The army changed it's training so new recruits were taught to shot before they were taught to march, Guerilla warfare training was give, and research was carried out into native foods that could be used to feed Guerilla fighters. Airforce recruits waiting for flight training received infantry training and would be used as infantry if the invasion happened before they got to flight training. The 2nd NZ Div in the Middle East didn't receive any reinforcements for IIRC 9-12 months. Old rifles were converted into poor LMG's, bulldozers were converted into crap tanks, and trucks into armoured cars, various other small arms were being produced in small quantities, and one offs for the defense of New Zealand including SMGs and Mortars. Families were hiding food in the bush so they could escape if the Japanese suddenly landed. Demolitions, and road blocks were set up. Apparently the field gun beside the Cambridge Cenotaph was taken away and buried because of concerns that the Japanese would think it was a military target and bomb it, the gun was never recovered.

So people in New Zealand were preparing to live out the movie Red Dawn 40 years before it was made.
 
From memory Freyberg raised the matter when there were a lot more Aussies in theatre. Besides, Freyberg was a Brit, otherwise he wouldn't have been put in charge in Crete! ;););)
More seriously, I doubt he was looking forward to managing the situation from either direction.
I wouldn't say that his nationality is as clear cut as that he was born in Britain but was raised in NZ from the age of 2 to 25 so it's more of a duel nationality thing. He even attempted to gain a commission in the Hauraki Regiment while working as a assistant dentist in Morrinsville. If you add up the years he spent in both countries he spent about the same amount of his life in each of them. I would agree that the training he got in the British Army, and the contacts he made during WW1, and between the wars in the UK contributed to him been given command at Crete.
Nationality wasn't as clear cut then as it is now, particularly within the British Empire. My Great Grandfather was born in NZ but at the start of WW1 he was in the UK so he enlisted in a British Army Bicycle Regiment, at the end of the war he was demobilized in New Zealand not the UK.
 
NZ Semple tank.

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...and it lives:
 
I wouldn't say that his nationality is as clear cut as that he was born in Britain but was raised in NZ from the age of 2 to 25 so it's more of a duel nationality thing. He even attempted to gain a commission in the Hauraki Regiment while working as a assistant dentist in Morrinsville. If you add up the years he spent in both countries he spent about the same amount of his life in each of them. I would agree that the training he got in the British Army, and the contacts he made during WW1, and between the wars in the UK contributed to him been given command at Crete.
Nationality wasn't as clear cut then as it is now, particularly within the British Empire. My Great Grandfather was born in NZ but at the start of WW1 he was in the UK so he enlisted in a British Army Bicycle Regiment, at the end of the war he was demobilized in New Zealand not the UK.

That's right, I believe Keith Park of BoB fame was a Kiwi. Command in the Commonwealth was interchangeable, Aussies and Kiwis were given command of British forces without a second thought if they were the senior officer present.
 
The best way is a real Japanese disaster at PH. In OTL everything seemed to go the Japanese way, in TTL everything goes against it. In OTL the Japanese figured that they might lose 3 carriers at PH , in TTL they lose 4 . It is a screwed up op from the get go. From what Calbear has said before I don't think this is impossible.

On top of that Doug MacArthur does the intelligent thing and figures out what to do in case of an attack by Dec 8th and gets his planes in the air the moment he hears about PH. He does bombing runs which hamper the Japanese. Because of all this the Japanese time table is thrown completely off and they can't take Singapore and can't take the DEI as a result. They run out of oil and fall apart early. NZ isn't even remotely threatened and so there is no reason that the division can't stay.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
That's right, I believe Keith Park of BoB fame was a Kiwi. Command in the Commonwealth was interchangeable, Aussies and Kiwis were given command of British forces without a second thought if they were the senior officer present.

Freyberg and Park (and Coningham, plus many others) were from the Empire but were members of the British forces. Corps level and higher command always has a political element that came into play for other than short-term appointments (e.g. well-timed promotion of a British General to out-rank Blamey).
I hoped that my 3 smileys indicated that things weren't clear-cut.
 
Can honestly say I learnt something from our discussions here. That is best thing about this forum. Different and often better/deeper knowledge plus different perspectives.

Thank you Gentlemen!!!
 
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