7 Years War, Prussia destroyed.

likely makes very little in the way of gains in this scenario.

I f Prussia is destroyed then its likely Hannover is overrun as well. That means that France will likely get all its colonial holdings back at the peace negotiations in exchange for a return of Hannover, something the ruling house of Britain is not likely to pass up getting back if they can.

I dont know, Hannover was kept safe for the whole duration of the war, and the French Government was getting tired.

New France was already being written off in Paris as a monetary black hole, so they might just decide its easier to let it go.

Britain would probably still of course have to give back Guadeloupe and Martinique, and since Britain doesn't do so well in this TL, they'd lose Minorca as well, but wether that goes to the French or the Spanish, I have no idea.

Everyone wanted to see the end of the war, and the French might accept peace if Britain accepts that Prussia is going to be torn apart.
 
Oh yes, and when Prussia gets disembered, who gets what:confused:

I put forward this.

Sweden gets Western Pomerania

Saxony gets some southern bits of Brandenburg.

East Prussia gets broken off as Russian vassal.

East Pomerania gets broken off as a seperate state.

Austria gets Silesia back and also recieves all land east of the Oder. Austria also picks up Prussia's western portions.

Britain loses Minorca and gains New France. Britain is forced to give back Guadeloupe and Martinique. (A late British victory stopping some kind of invasion of Hannover might let this go added to the fact that Russian Empress won't be living much longer and everyone wants to see Prussia gone before her nephew does something stupid).
 
Forgot the maps:p

Before

prussia disemberment before.png
 
Sigh, forgive all these posts in a row:eek: BUT...

another way to make Charles Stuart get the throne in an easier fashion is to cause Catherine the Great's coup against her husband fail (either permanently or just temporarily).

The reason for this is because Stanislaw II Augustus, the King of Poland who IOTL got elected (by Russian military coup) was an ex-lover of Catherine. If you can get Catherine's conspiracy to suffer (temporary) set-back at the hands of her husband, he'd probably not support Stanilaw's ambition out of mistrust.

So if eventualy Catherine does take down Peter, Charles Stuart would already be King of Poland.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Brandenburg would keep Neumark and Hinterpommern (and having a good chance of losing Magdeburg to Saxony). Prussia proper would be trade by Russia for some of PL easten territories (likely the areas Russia got in the first partipation).
 
Brandenburg would keep Neumark and Hinterpommern (and having a good chance of losing Magdeburg to Saxony). Prussia proper would be trade by Russia for some of PL easten territories (likely the areas Russia got in the first partipation).

Is this what your suggesting?

And would Austria/Sweden/Saxony want Prussia to keep her Baltic coast?

prussia dissembered.png
 
So, when will this TL start?:p

Maybe after some other kinks are ironed out. I think Prussia can keep Neumark, but she'll lose Hinterpommern.

Who will Britain ally with since Prussia is no longer viable?

A Russia estranged from her allies?

An Austrian Empire feeling once again threatened by the French?

If Austria picks up all those little Prussian peices out west, that would be a pretty contigious block between Hannover and France. I'm not sure wether or not Britain would take this as a good thing or wether or not thats plausible.

With the loss of Prussia proper, does Prussia still call herself that or is it to be called Brandenburg from now on?

I'm thinking that Catherine has some harder troubles knocking her husband off the throne and she gets sent to a nunnery under guard, and some of her conspirators are executed. This leads Peter III not to support Sigismund II Augustus' candidacy, as he sees him as too close to Catherine (ex lover and all).

This lets Charles Edward Stuart press his candidacy with French backing (a POD could be he does not show up drunk to the war meeting, and to prepare for the (ultimately doomed) planned invasion of England, he keeps sobering up giving the French a better opinion of him) and he marries Maria Amalia of Austria to cement his ties with them. He could also ally himself with the progressive party.

Empress Elizabeth lives for that extra year (the illness sets in late, or she secretly takes the medicine), but it soon becomes very clear to everyone what a Prussophile her heir is, so the anti-Prussian coalition are quick to make a deal with Britain (who gives back Guadeloupe and Martinique and loses Minorca) so they can finish off Prussia.

Prussia gets disembered. Brandenburg and Neumark stay together, but loses Magdeburg to Saxony, Silesia to Austria, East Prussia to Poland (who loses a chunk of Eastern Lithuania to Russia), and East Pomerania to Sweden. I'm not sure what would happen to Hinterpommern, but I think it would get shorn off as well. Wether that it be given to a Bourbon, a Wettin, a Romanov, or whoever I'm not sure of yet.

Frederick the Great of course is never known as the Great, and commits suicide. Thus the entire concept of partitioning Poland never comes up, and Catherine just continues to see Poland as her little playground.

I'm thinking that Great Britain will keep most of her gains, but I'm not too sure about Florida, though I'm thinking along the lines that the whole new World will turn out pretty much like it did in OTL after the war ended.

This of course will probably lead up to a American War of Independence, but if that was to happen, I would make sure it goes very differently.

Eventualy of course, Catherine the Great will overcome her husband, just a year or too later than OTL.

Again, I still need to think about it and work out some unknowns.
 
Some other thoughts.

Without Prussia to intervene, will Austria be able to succede in their plans during the war of Bavarian succesion.

Those plans of course were to switch the Austrian Netherlands with Bavaria.

Now in this timeline, the Austrians might have more land in the west, but still view it as more strategically viable to take Bavaria instead.

This of course creates some kind of Belgic, West German state on the border of France.

Now if there was some kind of British-Austrian rapprochement, would the British support this. While it puts a good sized state right next to Hannover, it puts a good sized state right next to France as well, and it would be presumeably allied to Britain and Austria alla the idea that started the whole war of Bavarian succesion.

Is this possible?

Prosposed state in question.

aa proposed rhenish state.png
 
Who will Britain ally with since Prussia is no longer viable?

An Austrian Empire feeling once again threatened by the French?

If Austria picks up all those little Prussian peices out west, that would be a pretty contigious block between Hannover and France. I'm not sure wether or not Britain would take this as a good thing or wether or not thats plausible.

I think that a British-Austrian rapprochement would be very likely, at least from the British point of view. The Austrians would offer no threat against them (well, theoretically they could invade Hannover, but I think the British government didn't care so much about that) while they could be very useful against France. I can see the British diplomacy trying hard to make Austria be an ally.

Now, maybe if the entire Pomerania goes to Sweden, giving them more land in the HRE, then a Swedisht alliance could be more useful. Could this happen?

With the loss of Prussia proper, does Prussia still call herself that or is it to be called Brandenburg from now on?

If they lose Prussian they would probably lose the royal title too, as a last humiliation. So probably it would be called back as Brandenburg. If Prussia is given to Poland, maybe by request of the Prussian nobles the territory is kept as separate kingdom in union with the Commonwealth. So the new king could have the title of King of Poland, King in Prussia and Grand Duke of Lithuania.
 
I think that a British-Austrian rapprochement would be very likely, at least from the British point of view. The Austrians would offer no threat against them (well, theoretically they could invade Hannover, but I think the British government didn't care so much about that) while they could be very useful against France. I can see the British diplomacy trying hard to make Austria be an ally.

Now, maybe if the entire Pomerania goes to Sweden, giving them more land in the HRE, then a Swedisht alliance could be more useful. Could this happen?

Ya your right. Britain switched over to Prussia to begin with because they believed that Austria wouldn't be capable of containing French influence in Germany. With Austria once again on the assent, and a whole slew of new land in the North Western Germany, I'm pretty sure London will see Austria as the natural defence against France.

Hmmm, nothing wrong with a Swedish alliance, especially with all the Swedish goods that Britain still wants (mostly material for the shipping industry I think) but I think that Britains primary alliance aim would be to get Austria back, since France was always the primary concern.


If they lose Prussian they would probably lose the royal title too, as a last humiliation. So probably it would be called back as Brandenburg. If Prussia is given to Poland, maybe by request of the Prussian nobles the territory is kept as separate kingdom in union with the Commonwealth. So the new king could have the title of King of Poland, King in Prussia and Grand Duke of Lithuania.

Hmmm, that could work.

Poland gaining East Prussia while Russia gets chunks of Lithuania could just be Elizabeth keeping German areas out of the hands of her nephew...
 
Some other thoughts.

Without Prussia to intervene, will Austria be able to succede in their plans during the war of Bavarian succesion.

Those plans of course were to switch the Austrian Netherlands with Bavaria.

Now in this timeline, the Austrians might have more land in the west, but still view it as more strategically viable to take Bavaria instead.

This of course creates some kind of Belgic, West German state on the border of France.

Now if there was some kind of British-Austrian rapprochement, would the British support this. While it puts a good sized state right next to Hannover, it puts a good sized state right next to France as well, and it would be presumeably allied to Britain and Austria alla the idea that started the whole war of Bavarian succesion.

Is this possible?

Prosposed state in question.


There has always been at least one complain I had about that basemap. Some of the colouring near the Netherlands is incorrect or at least not as correct as it could have been (possibly in other places too, but I lack the knowledge to judge about that). For some reason the bishopric of Munster and the archbishopric of Cologne have the same colour as Austria, while they were still independent. This is not the first time I see people assuming they are part of Austria. They are not. So Austria can't just trade it away for Bavaria and create a strong (and i must admit intrigueging) state near the Netherlands.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Is this what your suggesting?

And would Austria/Sweden/Saxony want Prussia to keep her Baltic coast?

Yes that my suggestion, and they wouldn't care that Brandenburg kept its coast, the area was poor, with little population and on edge of ecological collapse (through they avoided it thanks to new farming methods).

One other thing Münster and Cologne wasn't Habsburgs, it was a Biscopic and Archbiscopic under a Habsburg Archbiscop, and that was a few decades later from 1784 (the map is from 1789), until 1761 it was under Wittelsbach control, and from 1761-1784 the Archbiscop was from a minor noble family.
 
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There has always been at least one complain I had about that basemap. Some of the colouring near the Netherlands is incorrect or at least not as correct as it could have been (possibly in other places too, but I lack the knowledge to judge about that). For some reason the bishopric of Munster and the archbishopric of Cologne have the same colour as Austria, while they were still independent. This is not the first time I see people assuming they are part of Austria. They are not. So Austria can't just trade it away for Bavaria and create a strong (and i must admit intrigueging) state near the Netherlands.

Yes that my suggestion, and they wouldn't care that Brandenburg kept its coast, the area was poor, with little population and on edge of ecological collapse (through they avoided it thanks to new farming methods).

One other thing Münster and Cologne wasn't Habsburgs, it was a Biscopic and Archbiscopic under a Habsburg Archbiscop, and that was a few decades later from 1784 (the map is from 1789), until 1761 it was under Wettin control, and from 1761-1784 the Archbiscop was from a minor noble family.

Thanks alot, sorry about that mistake:eek:. I kind of got carried away in my thoughts by that map:rolleyes:

Can one of you, or somebody else, point out which of those bits are Cologne and Münster, and I'd greatly appreciate it.

Though the question still stands, without Prussia to intervene, can the Austrians win TTL war of Austrian seccession?

Also, to someone more knowledgeable than myself of that time and area, who would get the Prussian territories out in the west, or is that also a misconception made by the map:confused:
 
Yes plus the areas east of the Rhine which is coulored Austria, and the little enclave along the Rhine in the Prussian territorium.

Thanks alot.:)

While on the subject of the Prussian territorium, would Brandenburg keep them (it?) or would it be given to someone else? I'd really like to hear your opinion.

Just for clarification

munster and cologne.png
 
While on the subject of the Prussian territorium, would Brandenburg keep them (it?) or would it be given to someone else? I'd really like to hear your opinion.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that Prussia would keep most of it. Austria would probably just get the parts close to their Netherlands, Prussian Gueldres and maybe Cleves. Bavaria wasn't in the war, right?If it was it would probably gain Mark and Cleves and unifying it again with Julich and Berg.
 
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