7 Years War, Prussia destroyed.

There is one thing that I was thinking about: if some alternate French Revolution still happens, and Charlie or his possible son is on the Polish throne, as an ally of the Bourbons the king of Poland might even declare war against the Revolutionaries. And that would make the Jacobites de facto allied to the House of Hannover.:eek:

Oh the irony:cool:

Hmmm, but we'll probably have to get rid of his OTL wife, who never gave him a child...
 
Actualy, I imagined that he would be elected in 1763, at the end of the Seven Years' War, so the 45' will have been well and truly passed.

True, so very true but I would think after a faild uprising he would no longer be seen as useful by the French, I mean after the uprising he became a drukard and all around depressed and quickly became a liability for anyone conected to him. Atleast thats what I remeber reading about him post-uprising I could be wrong I'll have to go back and read up on it.
 
Oh the irony:cool:

Hmmm, but we'll probably have to get rid of his OTL wife, who never gave him a child...

Well, he only married her in 1772, nine years after his election ITTL. So he would be completely available to marry a French or Austrian princess (I think an Austrian would be more likely).
 
True, so very true but I would think after a faild uprising he would no longer be seen as useful by the French, I mean after the uprising he became a drukard and all around depressed and quickly became a liability for anyone conected to him. Atleast thats what I remeber reading about him post-uprising I could be wrong I'll have to go back and read up on it.

Thats true, so maybe it should be tried to marry him off earlier, and let his wife pull him out of his rut.

The 45' could still happen, but the POD could be that he gets over it better, however that is.
 
Well, he only married her in 1772, nine years after his election ITTL. So he would be completely available to marry a French or Austrian princess (I think an Austrian would be more likely).

An Austrian would also seem very reasonable and almost nescessary to keep everyone happy.

That or a Wettin princess, since the Wettin's got the Polish throne once or twice.

Any eligible Wettin or Hapsburgs princess' running around;)
 
Thats true, so maybe it should be tried to marry him off earlier, and let his wife pull him out of his rut.

The 45' could still happen, but the POD could be that he gets over it better, however that is.

So we need to get him an awsome wife who'll give him an heir and somthing to actually live for. Interesting, anyone know of any eligable noble ladies that fit that bill?
 
So we need to get him an awsome wife who'll give him an heir and somthing to actually live for. Interesting, anyone know of any eligable noble ladies that fit that bill?

I can't really find any at the moment...

Hmmm, the only problem we have here is that he could potentialy marry some minor noblewoman, and we'd never if OTL such a woman did or did not exist.
 
An Austrian would also seem very reasonable and almost nescessary to keep everyone happy.

That or a Wettin princess, since the Wettin's got the Polish throne once or twice.

Any eligible Wettin or Hapsburgs princess' running around;)

From Austria, there is one that has the right age to marry in 1763/1764:
Archduchess Maria Amalia of Austria.

From Saxony, unfortunately all the princesses seem to be too old or too young (and I believe Charlie would want to marry fast in order to ensure a possible heir, so the bride can't be too young).

There were also three daughters of Louis XV of France (although all of them were already in their 30's in 1764): Adélaïde, Victoire-Louise and Sophie-Philippine.
 
Maria Amalia would probably be the best choice, and she had NINE kids, though five of them never made it out of childhood.

And as sister to Marie Antoinette, that would make any of Charles' heirs nephews and neices to the (potentially deposed and executed) French royal familly:cool:
 
Originally posted by Gonzaga
From Saxony, unfortunately all the princesses seem to be too old or too young (and I believe Charlie would want to marry fast in order to ensure a possible heir, so the bride can't be too young).

Having a heir is not so important. In 1764 Polish kings were still elected and Polish crown was not hereditary. King Charles I would have had to change Polish political system. If he had managed to make deal with progressive party (among others Czartoryski family) and got powerful financial backing that might be possible.
OTOH, in XVIIIth century Russia considered Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as its vassal (quite correctly). Why should Russia give it away to Austria? Even Catherine the Great was allegedly criticized for allowing other countries to get parts of PLC insted keeping it all under Russian influence (although criticizing Catherine was certainly unhealthy). Without Prussia Russian is even in better position to achieve it.
 
Originally posted by Gonzaga


Having a heir is not so important. In 1764 Polish kings were still elected and Polish crown was not hereditary. King Charles I would have had to change Polish political system. If he had managed to make deal with progressive party (among others Czartoryski family) and got powerful financial backing that might be possible.

Sure, but the king's son would surely be a candidate anyway, so it would be interesting to Charles have a son that could be elected. If Charles' son becomes king is other problem, but he would probably try to have one in order to have a chance of keeping his line on the Polish throne.
Also, three decades later that famous Polish constitution recognised the Wettins as hereditary kings, so probably the idea of a permanent dynasty could come up anyway. If Charles have some luck the same guys who supported it IOTL might accept a Stuart dynasty instead.
 
Originally posted by Gonzaga
Sure, but the king's son would surely be a candidate anyway, so it would be interesting to Charles have a son that could be elected. If Charles' son becomes king is other problem, but he would probably try to have one in order to have a chance of keeping his line on the Polish throne.
Also, three decades later that famous Polish constitution recognised the Wettins as hereditary kings, so probably the idea of a permanent dynasty could come up anyway. If Charles have some luck the same guys who supported it IOTL might accept a Stuart dynasty instead.

The question of making Polish monarchy hereditary was already considered, but consevatives were still too strong. However, as I mentioned before, it might have worked. Stuart dynasty would have been actually quite acceptable for Polish-Lithianian noblemen.
First, it would be a dynasty which would probably be concentrated on Polish affairs - chances to regain British crown were small to none. Other elective kings, who often had already been rulers in other countries, tended to think more about their motherlands than about Poland.
Second, the romantic image of exiled king had its value.
Third, Jan III Sobieski as ancestor - really good card. Conservatives wouldn't be able to say he is totally alien in Poland. Besides, in XVIIth centuries many Scottish mercenaries had settled in Poland and were considered good citizens.
Fourth, Austrian and French backing. Poland-Lithuania had actually quite good relations with Austria and no conflict of interests. France was also considered a friendly country.
However, I still have my doubts about Russia. I'm not sure if Russia would have allowed it, even with estern part of the Commonwealth as compensation. In 1764 Russians practically made PLC their protectorate. Why to change it?
 
East Prussia is still technically Polish,

(East) Prussia was a sovereign state since 1660.

so the Russians might try to grab it too.

It was already occupied by Imperial Russian troops.

East Prussia could get put back as a Polish vassal (and the Poles are essentially at the time vassals of Russia),

East Prussia as a second Courland, a nominal Polish vassal but within the influence sphere of the Russian Empire?
Why should this happen?
An annexation by the Russian Empire seems to me likelier than the restoration of Polish suzerainty.
 
Originally posted by Gonzaga



Fourth, Austrian and French backing. Poland-Lithuania had actually quite good relations with Austria and no conflict of interests. France was also considered a friendly country.
However, I still have my doubts about Russia. I'm not sure if Russia would have allowed it, even with estern part of the Commonwealth as compensation. In 1764 Russians practically made PLC their protectorate. Why to change it?

Well I don't think anyone is discussing the loss of Russia's hold over the Commonwealth. Russia still for all intents and purposes controls the Sejm, so they could guarrantee the Stuarts won't do anything crazy (at least until the Revolutionary wars).

But what makes the Stuarts so good for Poland about not having a real homeland is good for Russia too. The Stuarts have no other nation to get funds to rule, armies to draw on, or a place to retreat to. The Stuarts would be completely at the mercy of the Sejm.

But is there a way to make a Stuart King more amenable to the Russians, or would the election have to happen when they're distracted. The Russians may not like the Stuarts and prefer someone else, but I see no reason how from a Russian perspective that the Stuarts could change anything.
 
Probably he could be imposed by France and Austria due to their fear of Elisabeth's heir, the future Tsar Peter. Let's say that after the Russian army destroys the Prussians Peter starts to blame France and Austria for making Russia join the war and finish the Prussian Army he loved so much. So, Vienna and Paris start to think that when Peter ascends the throne he might try to help Prussia or other German state against Austria. A Russian-controlled Poland would make things even worse, so they make a deal with Elisabeth while she is still alive: Russia gets everything she wanted in the East, but the remaining of Poland would be under a pro-Austrian king, and the candidate is the inexpressive Bonnie Prince Charlie, who couldn't have the power to threat Russia.

If we can make Elisabeth accept this, then when Peter assumes the throne there still might have enough internal problems to deal (like his wife conspiracies) then maybe Jacobite Poland might have a chance.
 
Probably he could be imposed by France and Austria due to their fear of Elisabeth's heir, the future Tsar Peter. Let's say that after the Russian army destroys the Prussians Peter starts to blame France and Austria for making Russia join the war and finish the Prussian Army he loved so much. So, Vienna and Paris start to think that when Peter ascends the throne he might try to help Prussia or other German state against Austria. A Russian-controlled Poland would make things even worse, so they make a deal with Elisabeth while she is still alive: Russia gets everything she wanted in the East, but the remaining of Poland would be under a pro-Austrian king, and the candidate is the inexpressive Bonnie Prince Charlie, who couldn't have the power to threat Russia.

If we can make Elisabeth accept this, then when Peter assumes the throne there still might have enough internal problems to deal (like his wife conspiracies) then maybe Jacobite Poland might have a chance.

Or have her death hold out till around the time of the election.

That or if there is a falling out between the three great powers and Peter becomes belligerent over his aunt's and her allies treatment of Prussia, could we possibly see a second War of Polish Succesion, which is brought to an end in some ways by Peter's wifes conspiracies and such against him if the war starts to go down hill.

At the end of the SWPS, could we see Catherine (after deposing her husband of course) accept a Stuart on the Polish throne, with maybe some sizeable eastern chunks of Ruthenia and the Ukraine thrown to Russia to satify them.
 
Also, a war of Polish Succession might just distract the three others to let the British get away with almost no bad effects. They probably would have to give Martinique and Guadeloupe, but the French would probably still write off New France in light of the size of the 13 colonies.

With Britain in worse standing, they also might not get Minorca back.
 
Why can't you simply have Charlie marry into one of th e Polish noble families instead of an Austrian or French princess...

Izabela Czartoryski-Fleming perhaps.. young in comparison to him but if an heir is desired then he is going to have to marry younger than himself of course it would need to be before 1761 of course.

the Polish monarchy is elective of course and its probably a bit too early to change that but the heir generally did have the inside track when they existed.

I'm sure there are a few Poniatowskas or Zamoykas running around as well...
 
Why can't you simply have Charlie marry into one of th e Polish noble families instead of an Austrian or French princess...

The problem is that if he chooses a Polish princess while it would please her family all the other nobles would start to complain "why from X family and not mine". A foreigner would avoid jelousy from other Polish noble families. Also, it would be a kind of recognition of his royal status, as he would be married to someone with good royal blood. And such marriage would help to tie him even more to his allies. The Emperor Joseph II, for example, would probably have a tendency to be kind to the family of his beloved sister Maria Amalia.
 
Britain.

likely makes very little in the way of gains in this scenario.

I f Prussia is destroyed then its likely Hannover is overrun as well. That means that France will likely get all its colonial holdings back at the peace negotiations in exchange for a return of Hannover, something the ruling house of Britain is not likely to pass up getting back if they can.
 
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