7 more people die in WW1

In Gallipoli a young promising Turkish officer named Kemal Ataturk is killed by a stray bullet while observing the front lines. During the Battle of Verdun a company commander called Charles de Gaulle bleeds out from a bayonet wound. On the front lines Benito Mussolini dies from wounds suffered as a result of an explosion from a grenade. Commander Miklos Horthy is killed as a result of shrapnel during the Battle of Otranto. Georgy Zhukov breaks his neck when he is thrown from his horse. Captain Harry S. Truman is killed by shell fire during an artillery duel on the Western Front. Gefreiter Adolf Hitler passes away in a field hospital as a result of complications from the inhalation of toxic gas. What does the world look like.
 
The first big changes would come in the Turkish War of Independence, which might end up getting a different name in TTL due to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk not being around. After that the butterflies would ensure a quite different world even if the other 6 were still around.
 
The first big changes would come in the Turkish War of Independence, which might end up getting a different name in TTL due to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk not being around. After that the butterflies would ensure a quite different world even if the other 6 were still around.

Is there any consensus on how critical Mussolini and Hitler were specifically to the rise of fascism in Italy and Germany?
 
Is there any consensus on how critical Mussolini and Hitler were specifically to the rise of fascism in Italy and Germany?

As a skeptic of Great Man Theory, the ingredients were there for fascism to rise if the war ends as in OTL. Dissatisfaction with Italian gains and the fragile political environment of the Weimar Republic were why Mussolini and Hitler were able to take over; IIRC we've had really good timelines on this site where Germany gets an alternate Führer.
 

kernals12

Banned
As a skeptic of Great Man Theory, the ingredients were there for fascism to rise if the war ends as in OTL. Dissatisfaction with Italian gains and the fragile political environment of the Weimar Republic were why Mussolini and Hitler were able to take over; IIRC we've had really good timelines on this site where Germany gets an alternate Führer.
Don't forget the fear of communism.
 
Eight: Second Lieutenant J.R.R. Tolkien of the Lancashire Fusiliers is KIA at the Battle of the Somme in the summer of 1916.
 
A slightly different texture to European fascism between the wars. Probably most significantly due to Horthy. No Horthy means an even more severe irredentist antimaximalist nationalist.
 
As a skeptic of Great Man Theory, the ingredients were there for fascism to rise if the war ends as in OTL. Dissatisfaction with Italian gains and the fragile political environment of the Weimar Republic were why Mussolini and Hitler were able to take over; IIRC we've had really good timelines on this site where Germany gets an alternate Führer.

It would probably look different, though, at least in Germany. Hitler was kind of the glue that held the Nazis together for a while, so either they would need a different glue or a different fascist demagogue would lead a different core group to the top. With the “right” person or people at the top, it’s another type of fascism; if it all goes to hell, you might see Germany go red.
 
Greece takes Ankara in 1921, carving a larger part of mainland Anatolia for herself and retaking Istanbul - permanently. Greece slips into a nearly fascist regime as a result. Turkey reforms, albeit too late, and Italy secures her southern flank while France moves farther north from Iskendrun and Britain inward from Mosul. A rump Turkey exists in the central and northern part of the peninsula. Turkey allies with Germany for World War 2 but suffers for it afterwards with Greece growing larger once more at her (and Bulgaria's) expense.

Italy comes under Balbo who continues with the March on Rome in 1922. Fascism is milder but better entrenched and more effective at actually improving living conditions. Innovation is encourages, the later Ethiopean adventure from OTL has the UK mediate peace folliwing closure of the Suez Canal after Balbo reveals he can conquer most of Egypt and the Sudan if needed and has already begun setting up an express highway to facilitate transit.

Pal Pronay is asked to lead the anti-Communist forces by the nascent Hungarian government of 1919, the horrors that ensue end with Austrian troops liberating Budapest - at their request. Hungary becomes an international pariah but mends its relationship with Vienna, together with Czechloslovakia this Central European Federation is arguably the strongest anti-Fascist bulwark outside of the Allies and, together with Poland, develops major technological innovations leading into the Second World War.

Soviet military purges in the 1930s leave her unable to defend against a major Chinese incursion at Nomghal in late Summer of 1942. Desperate, Stalin turns to Japan as an ally but in April 1943 Heydrich begins Fall Otto, taking Leningrad that September and Moscow that October. A desperate USSR continues the fight despite everything with at one point China occupying everything east of Lake Baikal and Germany at the verge if taking Ufa. Only the triad of Rosskosovsky, Stepanovich, and Vatutnin saved the rumo Soviet state from utter defeat at a horrific cost though they were restored much of their country at the Congress of Monaco in 1951.

This was largely because of a much more aggressive United States under Thomas Dewey following the lackluster performance of President Henry Wallace. America stayed out of many a fight early on in the war even after Balbo seized the Baleric Islands and Tunisia while Germany overran Luxembourg, Denmark, and later Poland then retooled her army. Stalin's naive support of the Tiger of Europe led to the fateful defeat first of the C.E.F., then Scandinavia, then France and the Low Counties. President Blum and his pro-German commander Henri Petain ran a spectacularly incompetent defense with only future Prime Minister and President LeClerc managing any sort of effective opposition in late 1941. This gave Germany a chance to bring the French Navy into German command, fly the Bloch MB 162 and Bugotti P-100 back to Germany as well as access to the FN 'Hornet' prototype rifle, all of which would be retooled and brought into German service. Without the "Me 264" that soon resulted and transition to underground manufacturing maybe Germany would have been defeated in '48 or even '47. The development of the Type XXX submarine, synthetic fuel factories, Me 264, and ubiquitous Gewehr 42 are all thought reasons Nazi Germany forces the war's end with an atomic device in 1951, especially after it shows the power to rain hell anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere via the V-103 with its successful New Year's strike on New York just after midnight in 1948.
 
Pal Pronay is asked to lead the anti-Communist forces by the nascent Hungarian government of 1919, the horrors that ensue end with Austrian troops liberating Budapest - at their request. Hungary becomes an international pariah but mends its relationship with Vienna, together with Czechloslovakia this Central European Federation is arguably the strongest anti-Fascist bulwark outside of the Allies and, together with Poland, develops major technological innovations leading into the Second World War.

How can you both know about Pal Pronay and suppose that Austrian troops will liberate Budapest? For gods sake, the guys claim to what fame he has is that with some irregular troops he kept the austrians out of Sopron and declared his own state to keep the territory hungarian. It was thanks to him that Sopron instead of simply being rewarded to Austria as originally planned had a referendum - and decided to remain hungarian. Now Austria that couldnt even manage to oust some hungarian irregulars is supposed to liberate Budapest. Not to mention the part that him asking austria for help is...

Oh and mending relationships with Czechoslovakia is out of the question right after the war. The polish also had significant problems with Prague thanks to Teschen.
 
In Gallipoli a young promising Turkish officer named Kemal Ataturk is killed by a stray bullet while observing the front lines. During the Battle of Verdun a company commander called Charles de Gaulle bleeds out from a bayonet wound. On the front lines Benito Mussolini dies from wounds suffered as a result of an explosion from a grenade. Commander Miklos Horthy is killed as a result of shrapnel during the Battle of Otranto. Georgy Zhukov breaks his neck when he is thrown from his horse. Captain Harry S. Truman is killed by shell fire during an artillery duel on the Western Front. Gefreiter Adolf Hitler passes away in a field hospital as a result of complications from the inhalation of toxic gas. What does the world look like.


Assuming the Depression comes as OTL, Germany will still be a dictatorship, maybe under another general after Hindenburg dies. Will still be revisionist but less hung-up about Jews, and maybe goes a bit slower about overthrowing ToV, so later WW2 or none.

Some other general leads the Turkish War of Independence. Afterwards new regime may be less secular than Ataturk's. Maybe they don't adopt the Latin alphabet.

Hungary and Italy get different dictators, but otherwise much as OTL.

If no war going on in 1940, FDR steps down after two terms. Successor probably another Democrat. Could be almost anyone.
 
As a skeptic of Great Man Theory, the ingredients were there for fascism to rise if the war ends as in OTL. Dissatisfaction with Italian gains and the fragile political environment of the Weimar Republic were why Mussolini and Hitler were able to take over; IIRC we've had really good timelines on this site where Germany gets an alternate Führer.

Benny was essential to bring together the various faction of the protofascist, the industrialist and keep the monarchy satisfied; a man like D'Annunzio not only will be considered too revolutionary for the taste of the old enstablishment but it will also not unite so much group and in this manner it will fail.
For Italy it's more probable some years of presidente del consiglio directly nominated by the King and with the open support of the army and the discrete support of the liberal

Basically wihtout him no fascist takeover
 
Regarding Fascism in Germany: A Turkish defeat in 1921/22 would mean not just gains for Greece, but also Britain and France. Said France is then going to need to hold onto it's prize. Which in turn might lead to the Ruhr occupation becoming a "casulty" of the butterflies. Get rid of that and the prospects for the Weimar Republic to survive are much much better than in OTL. Not assured mind you, but much better.
 
In Gallipoli a young promising Turkish officer named Kemal Ataturk is killed
That could let to Balkanizes Turkey, cut up between Greece, Bulgaria on West side, Armenian and Kurds in east and France & Italy & Britain in South
With a little Piece of turkey in middle...

Is there any consensus on how critical Mussolini and Hitler were specifically to the rise of fascism in Italy and Germany?
Both are Key figure in Fascism movement in Italy and Weimar republic
That special for the little annoying Austrian without him have German fascist no charismatic leader figure.
They have Göring (drugs), Himmler (criminal insane) Gobbles (too Hateful) and those were not appealing to Masses
and Communist were in same position.
It's More likely that Military and Conservative in Weimar get rid of Fascist and communist and establish a new Monarchy in 1930s
but one thing is sure that new state will be authoritarian, not fascist or either a dictatorship
 

Deleted member 94680

Some other general leads the Turkish War of Independence. Afterwards new regime may be less secular than Ataturk's. Maybe they don't adopt the Latin alphabet.

Some other general? Like who? OTL it took Ataturk and Ataturk alone to bring the TNM together. Minus him, Sivas likely descends into factional squabbling and the Ottomans manage to prevail with WAllied support.

Hungary and Italy get different dictators, but otherwise much as OTL.

Doubt it. Minus Mussolini, it’s the Army under the King for Italy and Hungary is a real toss up.
 
Top