.303 (British) is adopted as a rimless cartridge. Does anything actually change?

The justification was that the British Army had teams of statisticians surveying battlefields and interviewing combatants during WW2. They knew they needed to replace the bolt action Enfield with a SLR of some description. The statisticians established that most combat occurred at circa 300 yards with an upper limit of 500, the 303 was massively overpowered for combat at those ranges so the Army started looking at self-loading rifles in the 6.5-7mm range though some of the prototypes used 7.92 Kurz (mainly as it was readily available) one justification was it would allow troops to carry more ammo, could be used in full auto if necessary due to low recoil, was shorter than an Enfield and . What they eventually settled on was a the EM2 also known as Rifle No9 Mk1 which was smaller, lighter and shorter than a SMLE.

The US forced the whole 7.62 NATO thing as they didn't want a "light" bullet as only a manly 30 calibre bullet is good enough. Ironically within 5 years 5.56 was a thing.
True.. But I suspect if the UK / commonwealth already had a rimless .303 round there would have been a distinct lack of enthusiasm for replacing that round with the historical 7.62 x 51. I do agree that the UK / commonwealth would have likely been more enthused about adopting a lower power round.

All that being said perhaps politics would have resulted in the UK / Commonwealth adopting what ever the U.S. wanted.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Britain doesn't switch to 7.62 Nato in the 50's, other than that little changes. It's possible that Britain may adopt a semi automatic rifle in the late 30's but I think it unlikely due to financial constraints.
They would either switch or they would convince the U.S. to switch. Considering the biggest reason the U.S. downsized from the .30-06 to 7.62 NATO was the need to reduce perceived recoil and allow some degree of select-fire from combat rifles (although holding a 7.62 on target for anything more than a two-three shot burst is one hell of a trick) the .303 is hardly a good candidate. According to the the Chuck Hawks recoil tables list the 150 grain .30-06 with a recoil energy of 17.6 (which, BTW: exceeds by 2.6pound/15% the pre-WW I British Army maximum allowable recoil) and a recoil velocity of 11.9, a .303 British comes in at 14.2, recoil velocity of 11.0, which is something of reduction, especially in recoil energy, but still quite high, especially compared to h eventual 7.62 NATO velocity of 8.1.

Having fired all three I can, subjectively, say that 30-40 rounds of either .303 or .30-06 will pretty much kick your ass, even if the .30-06 is fed through a semi-auto like the Garand. Fun shooting, but will definitely wear you down a bit (and I'm not exactly a wee small lad). 7.62/.308 on the other hand the limit is the amount of wear on my wallet (its cheaper than -06, but it 'tain't that cheap.
 
i don't think it can work with round loaded with cordite, iirc the case was neck to final shape after the charge of propellant was inserted
also, there is the issue of headspacing on such a "petite" shoulder, and might lead to the same alterations as the .303 Epps
 
What would have been more interesting is if the UK had decided to go with the early development version of their clone of the 6.5x55mm Spanish Mauser, the 6.5x57mm, which was basically the same round wih a larger case to allow for the use of the less energetic cordite propellant that the UK preferred?

Historically, they kept chasing the magic 2800 fps muzzle velocity for the round, which led them to the 7x63mm round, but if they'd called it a day and accepted the 150 grain 2767 fps mv of their early development rounds in 1910, what would the EM-2 been like with a cut down 6.5mm round?
 
Well the Ross rifle becomes even more of a disaster in WWI. British WWI brass mannufacturing standards would also have to be improved drastically as rimless chamber tolerances are a lot more sensitive and prone to blowing the brass in half than rimmed rounds.
Actually, if the Brits are forced to modernize their cartridge industry wouldn't that eliminate the Ross Rifle 1910's primary issue?
 

Deleted member 1487

What would have been more interesting is if the UK had decided to go with the early development version of their clone of the 6.5x55mm Spanish Mauser, the 6.5x57mm, which was basically the same round wih a larger case to allow for the use of the less energetic cordite propellant that the UK preferred?

Historically, they kept chasing the magic 2800 fps muzzle velocity for the round, which led them to the 7x63mm round, but if they'd called it a day and accepted the 150 grain 2767 fps mv of their early development rounds in 1910, what would the EM-2 been like with a cut down 6.5mm round?
7mm Mauser. The Spanish did not use 6.5mm, that was the Portuguese.
 
I should have said Swedish Mauser.

The UK's .303 replacement program originally started out as a requirement for a 6.5mm round based on the 6.5x55mm Mauser that they encountered during the Boer War, (the Boers used both calibres) not the larger 7mm version that they eventually settled on after a lot of experimentation.
 

Deleted member 1487

I should have said Swedish Mauser.

The UK's .303 replacement program originally started out as a requirement for a 6.5mm round based on the 6.5x55mm Mauser that they encountered during the Boer War, (the Boers used both calibres) not the larger 7mm version that they eventually settled on after a lot of experimentation.
I think you're confusing the 6.5 with the 7mm. The British settled on the 7mm pre-WW1 and again after WW2. They encountered the Spanish 7mm Mauser in the Boer War. Only about 300 6.5mm Swedish Krag-Jorgensen rifles were used in the Boer War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_Commando
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag–Jørgensen#Norwegian-style_Krag_rifles_in_Boer_service
Some sources state that about 100 1896-date and at least about 200 1897-date rifles reached the Boers.

7mm Mausers however were a mainstay:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_Model_1895#History
The Model 1895 was also deployed to republic of the Orange Free State and the South African Republic (more commonly known as “Transvaal”) by DWM shortly after the Jameson Raid in December 1895 to deal with the shortage of modern magazine fed rifles for the state army.[1] Roughly 50,000 Mauser rifles were ordered but only 37,000 were delivered because DWM diverted them to fulfill their contract with the Chilean army.[2]
 

Deleted member 1487

How about Britain adopting the 7.65x53 Belgian Mauser round in 1900. I have read that it was sometimes called the metric .303 and going by wiki the two rounds are virtually identical apart from the rim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65×53mm_Mauser
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
If you don't mind the rim, the Dutch 6.5mm round was able to be used in existing British equipment with just a barrel change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5×53mmR
 
I think you're confusing the 6.5 with the 7mm. The British settled on the 7mm pre-WW1 and again after WW2. They encountered the Spanish 7mm Mauser in the Boer War. Only about 300 6.5mm Swedish Krag-Jorgensen rifles were used in the Boer War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_Commando
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag–Jørgensen#Norwegian-style_Krag_rifles_in_Boer_service


7mm Mausers however were a mainstay:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_Model_1895#History

The actual story is far more complicated than you think, but the development process actually started off with the Army actually specifying a 6.5mm for the initial trials and the change to a 7mm round didn't actually happen until at least a year into the development process. Even when they'd started playing with the 7mm variants, development of the earlier 6.5mm rounds continued in parallel for a fair while.
 
Actually, if the Brits are forced to modernize their cartridge industry wouldn't that eliminate the Ross Rifle 1910's primary issue?
The British cartridge industry made many of the rounds in use around the world, rimmed, rimless, semi rimmed. Making a new cartridge was no problem. If you would buy it they would make it. They were still making coiled brass Boxer cartridges for 1860s Sniders well after the Great War.Everything from 6.5 Krag-Jorgensen to 7mm and 7.92mm and they made .303 rimless even if was never adopted. see: https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-303-inch-rimless
 
Top