2nd Ypres what if

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Deleted member 1487

What if the Germans had had a single extra corps available to throw into the battle immediately after the release of gas? Though it happened at 5:00-5:05pm and it took some time to drift over the enemy lines and the German soldiers hesitated a bit instead of following it immediately, what if they threw this extra corps into the breach within 20 minutes of the release? Could they reach Ypres by night fall and collapse the British lines? The city was only about 7-8 miles distant from the German starting positions and there was literally no one between them and the city. Historically they managed to penetrate several miles the same day before stopping with only one division (fully committed) after pausing, but here there would be the exploitation corps and the other corps that historically confronted the Canadians.

I personally think the Germans could be to the outskirts of town while the neighboring corps dealt with the French, Belgians, and Canadians, probably capturing or wiping out the 1st Canadian division, rounding up a number of French troops, and possibly severely damaging at least the 28th British division. The other two, the 27th and the 5th, were likely to have to abandon the salient while losing a significant portion of their strength. The Allies would have to counter attack for political reasons, losing more men than historically and severely damaging themselves in international eyes. The gain of Hill 60 would have to be abandoned too, further adding insult to injury, as it was literally just gained several days before.

What political and military consequences would this have for both sides? What does this mean for the Belgians? Looking at the map of the situation:
http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/writing/maps.asp
It seems the Germans would release another corps from the line by eliminating the salient and probably add another division into the local army's reserve. The Ypres canal is a decent defensive line to hold it against further attacks, plus the ridges gained would significantly aid in defense of the town. It also places the Germans closer to other targets and throws the British off balance. Thoughts?
 
I'd ask what supply routes and other military infrastructure would be untennable with the salient reduced? Is there a railhead or something that once the salient is reduced would be within range of German guns and have to be abandoned?
 
What if the Germans had had a single extra corps available to throw into the battle immediately after the release of gas? Though it happened at 5:00-5:05pm and it took some time to drift over the enemy lines and the German soldiers hesitated a bit instead of following it immediately, what if they threw this extra corps into the breach within 20 minutes of the release? Could they reach Ypres by night fall and collapse the British lines? The city was only about 7-8 miles distant from the German starting positions and there was literally no one between them and the city. Historically they managed to penetrate several miles the same day before stopping with only one division (fully committed) after pausing, but here there would be the exploitation corps and the other corps that historically confronted the Canadians.

I personally think the Germans could be to the outskirts of town while the neighboring corps dealt with the French, Belgians, and Canadians, probably capturing or wiping out the 1st Canadian division, rounding up a number of French troops, and possibly severely damaging at least the 28th British division. The other two, the 27th and the 5th, were likely to have to abandon the salient while losing a significant portion of their strength. The Allies would have to counter attack for political reasons, losing more men than historically and severely damaging themselves in international eyes. The gain of Hill 60 would have to be abandoned too, further adding insult to injury, as it was literally just gained several days before.

What political and military consequences would this have for both sides? What does this mean for the Belgians? Looking at the map of the situation:
http://www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/writing/maps.asp
It seems the Germans would release another corps from the line by eliminating the salient and probably add another division into the local army's reserve. The Ypres canal is a decent defensive line to hold it against further attacks, plus the ridges gained would significantly aid in defense of the town. It also places the Germans closer to other targets and throws the British off balance. Thoughts?

I had this happen in "WI an Austro-Hungarian Tannenberg" though with the Germans following up this success by taking Mt. Kemmel to the south of Ypres which was a very important piece of high ground in Flanders. In OTL Smith-Dorrien did want to abandon the town itself and fall back behind the Canal Line but was overruled by French because the British had imbued Ypres with so much prestige during the first battle. One thing to factor in is its loss is likely to increase King Albert's pessimism about Entente victory and increase his secret efforts for a separate peace.
 

Deleted member 1487

I'd ask what supply routes and other military infrastructure would be untennable with the salient reduced? Is there a railhead or something that once the salient is reduced would be within range of German guns and have to be abandoned?

Yep, the main rail station was in the town of Ypres itself and once that line is cut, everything would need to be brought into the southern part of the salient by roads now under German observation and artillery. Not to mention that any Entente forces on the wrong side of the canal would be in an even more exposed and dangerous position in addition to being severely outnumbered.

I had this happen in "WI an Austro-Hungarian Tannenberg" though with the Germans following up this success by taking Mt. Kemmel to the south of Ypres which was a very important piece of high ground in Flanders. In OTL Smith-Dorrien did want to abandon the town itself and fall back behind the Canal Line but was overruled by French because the British had imbued Ypres with so much prestige during the first battle. One thing to factor in is its loss is likely to increase King Albert's pessimism about Entente victory and increase his secret efforts for a separate peace.

Could the Belgians really separate themselves from the Entente though? I have been reading your Operation Unicorn and know that you have explored that potential, but how are the Belgians just going to lay down their arms and walk over the the German side? Essentially they have lost their independence to their allies and would have a hard time getting a fair deal from the Germans. Also how would the Entente react to the separate peace, especially now that the Germans are likely to have gained parts of Belgium in Europe and the Congo?

Furthermore, what about American loans? If the Belgians are losing confidence in an Entente victory, why would they be willing to keep making loans or at least offer them at cheap interest rates? The loss would also have major effects in Canada, as their only troops in theater would essentially be lost by the British in a rather embarrassing fashion; does this make sending more politically untenable? Remember, there is not chance for heroism for the Canadians to point to as a rally cry; there is only the flight of the French and German surrounding and forcing the surrender of the division.
 
Albert

Yep, the main rail station was in the town of Ypres itself and once that line is cut, everything would need to be brought into the southern part of the salient by roads now under German observation and artillery. Not to mention that any Entente forces on the wrong side of the canal would be in an even more exposed and dangerous position in addition to being severely outnumbered.



Could the Belgians really separate themselves from the Entente though? I have been reading your Operation Unicorn and know that you have explored that potential, but how are the Belgians just going to lay down their arms and walk over the the German side? Essentially they have lost their independence to their allies and would have a hard time getting a fair deal from the Germans. Also how would the Entente react to the separate peace, especially now that the Germans are likely to have gained parts of Belgium in Europe and the Congo?

Furthermore, what about American loans? If the Belgians are losing confidence in an Entente victory, why would they be willing to keep making loans or at least offer them at cheap interest rates? The loss would also have major effects in Canada, as their only troops in theater would essentially be lost by the British in a rather embarrassing fashion; does this make sending more politically untenable? Remember, there is not chance for heroism for the Canadians to point to as a rally cry; there is only the flight of the French and German surrounding and forcing the surrender of the division.

Here is an interesting though subtly biased source about what King Albert did OTL http://www.imprint.co.uk/books/Belien_4.pdf I have been told that amongst the Socialists in the Reichstag there a broad agreement that there was to be no annexation of Belgium. There are several possible flies in the ointment. One is the Congo which is likely to be demanded by the Germans to form Mittelafrika. Another is a protracted occupation of parts of Belgium even if no permanent annexation. Lastly Belgium is not an absolute monarchy. The civilian government in general was less pessimistic about Entente victory. However in 1917 PM de Broqueville also became pessimistic and conducted secret negotiations through Austria-Hungary.
 
Supposedly Ypres was the last major defensive position that could be had in the area... depending on the stop line it would theoretically reduce the size of the front and give the Germans a few more channel ports to base their U-boats from

I don't see it as particularly decisive
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't mean it to be a decisive attack here either. Mt. Kemmel still has a commanding view of the surrounding area and the heights behind it, though significantly smaller, still offer protection from observation and mining opportunities. Beyond that there are still major cities in Belgium still free from German possession. But the capture of Ypres would offer a much straighter line freeing up more resources and would probably affect the Belgian civilian government's mood.

A major issue at the time was also the lack of British artillery shell production. The Neuve Chappelle attack had used up 1/6th of all artillery stocks and had only recently been wrapped up. On the day of the gas attack, April 22nd, there still was residual fighting going on over Hill 60 in the Ypres salient that had been captured in that offensive. So a determined thrust could eliminate the bulge and also would be difficult for the British to counter immediately, especially, if like Tom_B suggests, the Mt. Kemmel is taken also. This might produce a general pull back to prevent a dangerous situation.
 
Supposedly Ypres was the last major defensive position that could be had in the area... depending on the stop line it would theoretically reduce the size of the front and give the Germans a few more channel ports to base their U-boats from

I don't see it as particularly decisive

Holding the channel coast is a touch more important than that, it more or less takes the war to Britain as well as France. The whole cross channel supply route would have to be shifted much further west if ther Germans hold the channel ports. The Germans can easily interdict shipping through the channel heading for the great port of London and have control of a route out into the channel for blockade running.
 
Holding the channel coast is a touch more important than that, it more or less takes the war to Britain as well as France. The whole cross channel supply route would have to be shifted much further west if ther Germans hold the channel ports. The Germans can easily interdict shipping through the channel heading for the great port of London and have control of a route out into the channel for blockade running.

The British would still do a mine barrage at Portsmouth and Brest to put a cork in the channel.

The British would shift their primary supply ports to cherbourg and brest (this might cause delays in supplies reaching the front and delay or check counter offensive activity)

The French would be little affected other than morale and their press was good at turning defeats into propaganda victories anyway
 

Deleted member 1487

How are the Germans supposed to reach the channel in 1915? They don't have the strength vis-a-vis the Entente. They demonstrated that in 1914 when they couldn't breakthrough even with numerical superiority. The gap had closed significantly since then, especially in firepower.
 
Wiking, I was addressing the comment that Ypres was the last defensive position in the area and theoretically would give the Germans a few more channel ports, which is a personal obession of mine.

Blairwitch, the mine barrage across the 21 mile Dover St was full of holes until 1917, imagine how full of holes the gap between Cherbourg and the Isle of Wight, and how many shells won't be made in order to make all of those mines, and how many ships will be needed to patrol the field. Also imagine how many coastal forces, monitors and the like will be needed to gain control of the occupied coast in the face of shore batteries, naval forces and defensive minefields and again how many men and resources won't go into the BEF. A smaller BEF will probably be a nessecity since the longer supply journeys will consume more men and resources.

Sorry about the rant, its an interest of mine.
 
An argument can be made that the British were the most stubborn combatant of WWI when it came to holding ground even when it was not defensible. Second Ypres gives a wonderful example of this when there was this horrible jagged salient that developed after the initial German advance. It was exposed to artillery fire from 3 sides and Smith-Dorrien insisted on withdrawing from it and got sacked by Sir Jon French who then replaced him with Plumer who told him the same damn thing. Only then did Second Army withdraw.

IMHO the B.E.F. was its least impressive in the spring and summer of 1915. Later in the year when the Stokes mortar is approved (DLG being wiser than many generals), shell production increases, Mills bomb production increases and Lewis guns start arriving in quantity they are an improved fighting force.
 

Deleted member 1487

Are they then the most vulnerable of combatants for a German offensive in 1915?
 
Are they then the most vulnerable of combatants for a German offensive in 1915?

Hmm Russia is also very vulnerable as was demonstrated in OTL. The number of British divisions is increasing markedly in 1915 with first the Terriers and then the New Army divisions. So a really aggressive a German offensive is likely to run into ample British reserves.
 

Deleted member 1487

But the quality and skill of the new formations was not up to the same level as the other formations even of the French. On the Western Front this might be best option to achieve some sort of breakthrough. The British were lacking of important weapons and ammunition and were still forming units, which were off a lesser quality given their lack of experience and training, demonstrated during the Loos offensive. However, like the German intelligence branch indicated, the French were experiencing morale and leadership problems (including a severe shortage of small unit leaders) that indicated a greater chance of breaking.
 
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