28 knot Nelson & Rodney

I once saw, as a throw away line, that just prior to these ships being retired post ww2 there was a plan/idea to modernise one or both of these ships which included increasing their speed to 28 knots.

Has anyone else ever heard of this? What did it entail?

Assuming someone other than me has heard of it; WI this modernisation was conducted just prior to ww2? Would having a pair of fast, 16" BBs change the course of many campaigns/actions?
 

MrP

Banned
It doesn't ring any bells, old boy. I just had a skim through Ronald Careless' little book, and through two of D. K. Brown's, but I can't find a mention. The closest is a remark by Careless on the hard work of the American shipyard who managed to get Nelson up to her original 23 knots when they spruced up her engines in late '44.
 
Can't say I've heard of this.

Purely off the top of my head, it would require a major refit and a significant rebuild to increase her speed by that degree. Considering existing committments to new tonnage in capital and other ships, that would be unlikely to happen.

However if it did happen, they would certainly be used more offensivly in the fleet rather than for convoy and bombardment duties.
 

Redbeard

Banned
There were plans for a thorough refit (not at least Rodney needed it), and these might have included speculations about more powerful engines and better speed. But I doubt it would have been more than speculations, as the Nelsons were two shaft designs, and it would be difficult (impossible) to put significantly more speed into two shafts. Changing the ships into four shaft designs would probably be prohibitive for cost reasons. Building new hulls for the existing guns and turrets would be a better option, but battleships weren't that much needed, and if they had been, much better gun designs were at hand.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Bearcat

Banned
Rule of thumb

The rule of thumb with increasing speed of a large ship like this is roughly 4 knots gained every time you DOUBLE total horsepower.

That's a heck of a tall order, getting 5 knots more out of Rodney. If anyone knows details, I'd love to hear them.
 
The rule of thumb with increasing speed of a large ship like this is roughly 4 knots gained every time you DOUBLE total horsepower.

That's a heck of a tall order, getting 5 knots more out of Rodney. If anyone knows details, I'd love to hear them.

the only suggestion I've heard that would do this is to build a complete new back end, new machinery, 3 or 4 shafts, and basically cut and paste it on
 
Maybe they decide to put the turrets into a new battleship, either the Vanguard or one of the aborted Lions?

It's probably not worth it, given that the 16"/45 Mk1 wasn't a particularly successful gun. Thanks to an anomalous trial just after WWI, they ended up firing light shells (only 2048lbs compared to the 1938 of the 15"/42) at high velocities which reduced the barrel life. The turrets themselves were fairly problematic- they were the first triples in the Royal Navy, they incorporated lots of new hardware, and then they had the problem of weight-saving to get the ship to Washington Treaty limits on top of that. They've also been to sea for quite some time, which means they've been subjected to a fair amount of flexing and bending and might make it difficult to fit them into a new ship: remember that the turrets used in Vanguard didn't see much sea service before going into storage.

Nelson and Rodney are an impressive technical achievement on a very tight weight limit; however, when you consider that they've only got slightly more power than a destroyer (45,000shp compared to 34,000shp for the G-class) it starts getting hard to imagine them reaching 28kts. If you want to see a fast, innovatively designed 16in battleship, the best chance is for a different Washington Treaty. I've heard, though never found a source, that Balfour was offered the choice at Washington between two G3s and keeping Tiger and the Iron Dukes- and knowing Balfour, I can see him making the choice he apparently did.
 
A better bet would have been to fit the triple 16" that was being designed for the new Lion class, which reverted back to the heavy shell. Or even refit the existing turrets with the new guns, if feasable.

I think the most the RN put through 2 shafts in this era was around 56,000hp - fiting this machinery would probably give 25 knots or so. Redoing the hull shell by welding would have given a smoother hull, so without major structural work I could see getting them up to maybe 26 knots, but thats about it.
 
I've heard, though never found a source, that Balfour was offered the choice at Washington between two G3s and keeping Tiger and the Iron Dukes- and knowing Balfour, I can see him making the choice he apparently did.

I've also heard a suggestion that 37,500 tons was suggested at Washington for a short time which if accepted would be interesting.

The later KGV's wont have to mess about with twin 14" for B turret (although they wouldn't have had to if the 5,25" secondaries weren't called for) and it may be that a balanced (as far as the RN in concerned) 16" gun ship can be buil.

Effect on everyone else of 37,500 tons doesn't really matter as the opponents are cheating anyway.
 
Top