.

Without Ustasa we wouldn`t have trouble at the Australian Open tennis, where these misinformed Croat fuckwits march doing Nazi salutes and picking fights with other Balkan fans.

When questioned about the Nazi salute they replied that it was an historic Croatian salute. Yes, historic to WW2 when Ustasa couldn`t help the Nazis enough! Cockheads!

Weren`t all those guys Australian Croatians? A lot of Ustasas escapes to Australia after WW2, so those guys were probably their descendants.

It was a bit funny watching people that spoke with that heavy Crocodile Dundee version of English talking about defending Croatian pride on the news. :rolleyes:
 

abc123

Banned
@Abc123:

Err... what slaughters in 1920? You are starting to sound like chetniks back home. :(

Yes, slaughters in 1920s.
That's historical fact. I don't lie here.;)

I can't give you a link on English, but here's text on Croatian, so let other members of AH.com translate it for you:

Po M. Đilasu jeziv slučaj dogodio se u Šehovićima u studenom 1924. godine. U svojoj knjizi Nova klasa opisao je kako su Crnogorci poklali 350 Muslimana koji su bili protjerani u Bijelo Polje. Čak je i njegov otac sudjelovao u tom pokolju nevinih ljudi. Uzroke pokolja M. Đilas vidi u mentalitetu ljudi koji se stvarao kroz stoljeća mržnje prema Turcima i želje za osvetom.

Jedna od karakteristika novostvorene jugoslovenske države činilo je progonjenje i nasilje nad Bosancima u BiH i Sandžaku.Tako je do septembra 1920. godine pored ostalih oblika nasilja ubijeno oko 2 000 Bosnjaka. U pograničnim krajevima Crne Gore ubijeno je 126 bosnjackih seljaka. Zapaljeno je 500 bošnjackih seoskih zadruga. Samo do jula 1919. godine od 4 218 bošnjačkih zemljovlasnika oduzeto je bez ikakve nadoknade 400.072 hektara njihove vlastite zemlje.

Ponovo ćemo citirati M.Đilasa: Muslimanskim svještenicima su čupali brade i urezivali im krstove na čelu. U jednom su selu grupu ljudi žicom vezali za plast sijena i zapalili. Posle su prepričavali da ljudi gore purpurnim plamenom. Jedna je grupa napala jedno domaćinstvo na osami . Seljak je upravo derao jagnje. Njega su namjeravali ustrijeliti, kuću mu spaliti, ali ih je guljenje jagnjeta navelo da o istoj šljivi za pete objese živa seljaka, jedan od njih iskusan mesar je sjekirom rascijepio seljaku ……

If you can find a book of Milovan Đilas: Land Without Justice, New York, 1958. That's a pretty good source.
 
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Weren`t all those guys Australian Croatians? A lot of Ustasas escapes to Australia after WW2, so those guys were probably their descendants.

It was a bit funny watching people that spoke with that heavy Crocodile Dundee version of English talking about defending Croatian pride on the news. :rolleyes:

Yes, what a bunch of cocks. They affect a half-arsed accent when playing up to others to make them sound different.

They used to do it at the local soccer as well, they had to take the name Croatia out of Melbourne Croatia and take down the Croat flags because of the fighting. Fuckwits!
 
No need for translation, ABC, I can write and speak perfect Serbian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Bosnian :)p) and even a little bit of Macedonian. XD

Well, I didn't know that. Ali rodjace, tu dolazimo do kljucnog pitanja za iznad naveden tekst. Da li su Crnogorci Srbi, ili pak zaseban narod? ;)
 

abc123

Banned
No need for translation, ABC, I can write and speak perfect Serbian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Bosnian :)p) and even a little bit of Macedonian. XD

Well, I didn't know that. Ali rodjace, tu dolazimo do kljucnog pitanja za iznad naveden tekst. Da li su Crnogorci Srbi, ili pak zaseban narod? ;)


Pa očito da su se, posebno u tom pojasu ( crnogorski Sandžak ) tada ( a i danas ) smatrali za Srbe, uostalom zar dvojiš da su pripadnici tog područja i kasnije u WW2 uglavnom bili četnici? A i sama Kraljevina Crna Gora i kralj Nikola II su Crnogorce smatrali samo nekom vrstom/regionalnom pripadnošću Srba, i natjecali su se Karađorđevićima tko će biti glavna srpska dinastija/država...
 
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Pa danas, i ne bas. Sto se tice tog vremena (pre drugog svetskog rata), pretpostavljam da bi se moglo tako reci. Ali ovo za Nikolu II je tacno i shvatam sta hoces da kazes.

However, the crimes you mentioned were against (Bosnian) Moslems and not against Croats, who were the Ustasa movement.
 

abc123

Banned
Pa danas, i ne bas. Sto se tice tog vremena (pre drugog svetskog rata), pretpostavljam da bi se moglo tako reci. Ali ovo za Nikolu II je tacno i shvatam sta hoces da kazes.

However, the crimes you mentioned were against (Bosnian) Moslems and not against Croats, who were the Ustasa movement.

498px-Crna_Gora_-_Etnicki_sastav_po_opstinama_2011_1.gif


About Ustaše movement, yes, it is truth that Croats ( Catolic Croats ) were members from the beginning, but later a significant number of Muslims joined Ustaše. I mentioned that because I wanted to say that Chetniks would go with their policy ( Moljevićev plan, jel se tako zove? ) with Ustaše or without them.
Basicly, it would evolve in a war between Partisans and Chetniks ( some sort of Greek situation ), instead in war between Chetniks, Ustaše and Partisans as OTL. And Chetniks would certainly use that to get rid of undesirables in Greater Serbia/new Yugoslavia after the war.
 

Angel Heart

Banned
Personally I think that if it wasn't for the Ustaše, some other people would have filled the void. Maybe we would have seen Croatian fascist who weren't such psychopathic monsters or maybe some who would have been worse (if that is possible). The anti-Serb sentiment was pretty much the reason they came into existence. But even if without the Ustaše there were still some unresolved issues as shillinger pointed out. And as much as the Ustaše had no redeeming qualities (at least in my opinion), what happened after World War II was more the fault of the new Yugoslav government than theirs.

I find this very hard to believe. Why would the Nazis be horrified by anything the NDH was doing considering all the things they did across the whole of continental Europe, especially Poland and the occupied parts of the USSR?

Some of them were disturbed by the atrocities of Ustaše. Von Horstenau even claimed that "the Ustaša camps in the NDH are the epitome of horror" if this site is to be believed.
 
So let's say Hitler never supports the creation of the Independent State of Croatia, avoiding the Ustaša movement and the genocide on Serbs and other such things. Instead, the place is occupied, just like Serbia. Assuming little else changes (I don't see why it would), how do things play out after the war? Does the fact that the Croats have not tried to ethnically cleanse Greater Croatia of Serbs help Yugoslavia stay together, or at least fall apart less violently?

Hmm this is a very interesting question. Your saying that Yugoslavia AS A WHOLE is occupied by Germany, the way let's say Germany occupied France or Poland etc?

I actually think that Hitler would probably have partitioned the country anyway. Yugoslavia was the created through the hated Versailles treaty which he sought to revise and restore the old order of Europe pre-WWI. So a partition of Yugoslavia was inevitable. Italy would most likely have annexed all of the Dalmatian coast, along with Montenegro and Albania and therefore completely dominated the Adriatic. Slovenia would have been annexed as part of Germany since Slovenia had always belonged to the Austrian half of the Habsburg Monarchy and it was these lands Hitler viewed as historical parts of a Greater Germany.

As for the rest of Croatia and Slavonia I think that in all likelihood Hitler would have re-incorporated these areas into Hungary which was part of the Axis. Croatia had traditionally been a part of Hungary within the Habsburg Empire and it would satisfy Hungarian ambitions of overturning the Treaty of Trianon 1920. I think Vojvodina would also have been given back to Hungary.

Now as for the rest of Yugoslavia and in particular, the Serbian parts of Yugoslavia it is very hard to say what Hitler would do. Macedonia would obviously have been annexed to Bulgaria since Bulgaria was an Axist state and the region of Kosovo would probably be incorporated into Albania which was under Italy anyway. However, the rest of Serbia proper and Bosnia would pose a dilemma for Hitler, since neighboring Hungary and Italy would probably not desire incorporating too many Slavs into their country and would have no interest in these lands.

What I think Hitler would probably do is create a new Yugoslav state in the Balkans involving axis Bulgaria and axis Serbia. Serbia would obviously be massively reduced to its pre-1912 borders, but it would include most of Bosnia which neither Hungary nor Italy desired. Bulgaria would obviously be given dominant status in the union, with Sofia as the capital of this new Yugoslavia. In effect I feel like Hitler would create something equivelent to the Czechoslovak federation involving Bulgaria and Serbia. Just as Czechs were the dominant player in their state, Bulgarians would be the dominant force in Hitler's Yugoslavia with Serbs occupying a similar position to Slovaks in Czechoslovakia.
 

abc123

Banned
Personally I think that if it wasn't for the Ustaše, some other people would have filled the void. Maybe we would have seen Croatian fascist who weren't such psychopathic monsters or maybe some who would have been worse (if that is possible).

There actually was Croatian National Socialist Party, but it was banned ( IIRC ) or barely tolerated in NDH because Ustaše looked aat them as possible competition.
 

abc123

Banned
The anti-Serb sentiment was pretty much the reason they came into existence. But even if without the Ustaše there were still some unresolved issues as shillinger pointed out. And as much as the Ustaše had no redeeming qualities (at least in my opinion), what happened after World War II was more the fault of the new Yugoslav government than theirs.

I agree.;)
 

abc123

Banned
Von Horstenau

Intresting thing is that he said that he and Baldur von Schirach were fooled by Hitler because they agreed with him that Austria will remain independent and only in monetary and custums union with Germany, but Hitler made Anschluss.
 
To completely remove Ustashe you'd need PODs in '20es. And you need to remove reasons why Croats turned to such extreme movement (massive Italian support would remain but still...). You need to have King Aleksandar I be less of a "L'Etat, c'est moi".

Sad fact is that king and his government were pissing on founding accords of Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenians by 1919; completely unwilling to give agreed autonomy and democratic institutions. Croats saw this as Serb oppression; while in truth King Aleksandar I was equal opportunity dictator for all.

Bad blood was starting to be seeded nearly immediately after the founding of the new state.

You need to reach compromise between Serbs and Croats much sooner than OTL; and maybe some diplomatic settlement with Italians, causing them to be less aggressive towards Yugoslavia and so eliminating the initiating reasons of Ustashe and their main foreign financiers.

Then you can maybe even get much lesser scale of Chetnik (as a "Defensive response to Ustashe") movement in war and additionally lower the post war hostilities.


Having UK supported coup in '41 fail and Yugoslavia remain (very coldly) pro Axis would be best; avoiding occupation and partition fully. But that causes so many butterflies. Do Germans start Barbarossa as planned couple months earlier than OTL? Does that allow them to take Moscow in '41? Is that sufficient for them to win the war or not? Even assuming war goes as OTL; does Red Army "liberate" Yugoslavia in '45 as it did with other countries? Without resistance movements in Yugoslavia will Churchill go for OTL 50:50 for YU or will Yugoslavia be fully given to Soviet sphere of influence?


Closest to OTL would be less strong Ustashe movement before the war (for whatever reasons). Hungary agreeing to take parts of territory (they were vicious overlords in areas they did occupy OTL and did quite a bit of ethnic cleansing and genocide of their own; but they later became poor victims of evil communists so all is forgiven and forgotten by history. Anyway its irrelevent to thread topic as post war hate is directed towards external enemy). And Macek agreeing to form a Quisling government in Zagreb.

This could maybe allow sufficiently low amounts of ethnic bloodshed between peoples of YU to at least allow a peaceful breakup in '90es.
 

abc123

Banned
Having UK supported coup in '41 fail and Yugoslavia remain (very coldly) pro Axis would be best; avoiding occupation and partition fully. But that causes so many butterflies. Do Germans start Barbarossa as planned couple months earlier than OTL? Does that allow them to take Moscow in '41? Is that sufficient for them to win the war or not? Even assuming war goes as OTL; does Red Army "liberate" Yugoslavia in '45 as it did with other countries? Without resistance movements in Yugoslavia will Churchill go for OTL 50:50 for YU or will Yugoslavia be fully given to Soviet sphere of influence?


That would be definitly the best outcome for all. I doubt that Germans would attack before OTL because of rasputitsa in Soviet Union and I doubt that they would suceed to take Moscow.
Also, if Yugoslavia managed to avoid war and Cvetković-Maček Government is still at the helm, IMO it is allmost certain that they will belong to western camp after the war.
 
That would be definitly the best outcome for all. I doubt that Germans would attack before OTL because of rasputitsa in Soviet Union and I doubt that they would suceed to take Moscow.
Also, if Yugoslavia managed to avoid war and Cvetković-Maček Government is still at the helm, IMO it is allmost certain that they will belong to western camp after the war.

Not to mention once Allies land in Italy a quite likely Allied landing in Dalmatia as was supported by Churchil.
 
So let's say Hitler never supports the creation of the Independent State of Croatia, avoiding the Ustaša movement and the genocide on Serbs and other such things. Instead, the place is occupied, just like Serbia. Assuming little else changes (I don't see why it would), how do things play out after the war? Does the fact that the Croats have not tried to ethnically cleanse Greater Croatia of Serbs help Yugoslavia stay together, or at least fall apart less violently?
The Ustasha was already around long before the Nazis. They were being trained by the Italians for years before the Peasants Party refused the Nazis offer to take over the government of an independent Croatia. To avoid the Ustasha you'll need to avoid the death of Stepjan Radic, and even then an Ultranationalist Croatian Organization is hard to lose if Yugoslavia remains under complete Serbian hegemony.
 
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