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- Thread starter Ptolemaios
- Start date
Way I see it Germans needed the indigenous separatist movement in order to put at least an appearance of legality on the Yugoslavian break up. Besides, they wanted to create a some sort of state just to avoid having to occupy the area. The amount of troops occupying Serbia was not that much larger than Croatia. They formed a quisling Nedic government there the same as in so called NDH. italians formed puppet Montenegro as well, and had ambition to name an Italian royalty duke of Aosta as the King of Croatia. The ambition was to divide the area to hamper united opposition by all Yugoslav people and it succeeded up to a point.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
One good way to prevent the Ustase from taking power is to offer most of Slavonia or Dalmatia or both to Hungary, although Miklos Horthy wisely declined for some odd reason.
Alex Richards
Donor
Horthy recognised that Hungary could only be stable if the ethnic minorities were kept to a minimum, hence taking only part of Romanian Transylvania.
This. And any potentional alternate resistance force beside partisans was cleared off the table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlatko_Maček
This guy, Vlatko Maček, was the leader of the biggest croatian political party at the time and unofficial representative of all democratic forces in Croatia. Germans first offered him the leadership role, then when he declined Ustaše came into the equation. In general, he was without the backbone and a very short sighted man, Neville Chamberlain of our domestic political scene at the time.
Now if these two were around to lead Croatia through WW2 years, we would be far better off as a society and with cleaner legacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stjepan_Radić
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alojzije_Stepinac ( At least leads Croatia in Kaiserreich )
abc123
Banned
Well, Pavelić and Ustaše were actually Italian candidates ( because Hitler initially offered to Maček that he and his HSS become/remain in charge of Croatia, but Maček refused ), and because Hitler allready decided that area of NDH is in Italian sphere of influence, then it was Pavelić and Ustaše.
abc123
Banned
Also Hitler hated the Hungarians, besides, giving major part of Croatia to Hungarians would negate the whole idea of pacification of Balkans, because partisan movement ( fighting against Hungarians, not Italians this time ) would become much stronger.
abc123
Banned
Actually no.
The fact is that ethnic cleansing was mutual ( Serbs have cleansing Croats, and Croats did the same thing to the Serbs ). Actually Serbs began with masacress in Croatian villages near Mostar: Ilići and Cim, at April 10, 1941 ( on the day when NDH is proclaimed in Zagreb, so no atrocities by Ustaše could be made simply because most of Ustaše were still in Italy ).
The reason for that massacres was Serbian impression that Croats betrayed Yugoslavia ( while their generals like Nedić brothers have capitulated to Germans their whole armies without a shot being fired- Belgrade was occupied by seven / 7 / German soldiers ).
Agreed on the first guy, but, the wiki article does NOT present a good picture of the second guy, so your recommendation doesnt make much sense.
abc123
Banned
And why not?
After all, he fought in Serbian Army in WW1 ( that make him a bishop after all )?
Even Pavelić and Ustaše were planning a assasination of Stepinac during the war.
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Without Ustasa we wouldn`t have trouble at the Australian Open tennis, where these misinformed Croat fuckwits march doing Nazi salutes and picking fights with other Balkan fans.
When questioned about the Nazi salute they replied that it was an historic Croatian salute. Yes, historic to WW2 when Ustasa couldn`t help the Nazis enough! Cockheads!
When questioned about the Nazi salute they replied that it was an historic Croatian salute. Yes, historic to WW2 when Ustasa couldn`t help the Nazis enough! Cockheads!
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Well, the Ustase crimes actually horrified even the Gestapo though, and I mean grisly scenes of entire villages that were slaughtered. I also wonder what would the Serb Chetnik movement be like without the Ustase to fight against? Of course, if there was no Croat Home Guard as well, then Tito's partisans would not be able to get enough weapons to fight the Nazis.
abc123
Banned
Trouble with them ( part of Croats in Australia ) is that they were raised in environment where they had heard only one side of story.
abc123
Banned
They would had hands full of slaughtering with impunity all undesirables in Greater Serbia, something like they did in 1918-1921 period slaughtering thousands of Muslims in Sandžak area and in OTL period in eastern Bosnia.
One of reasons why Muslims in Bosnia were so numerous in Ustaše units was retaliation to Serbs for slaughters in 1920s.
Snake Featherston
Banned
Not creating Croatia implies a different Nazi policy of occupation in the Balkans. A good part of the OTL motivation for it was both a desire not to tie down too many Wehrmacht forces in the former Yugoslavia and Mussolini's influence on Hitler as far as creating a puppet-state. If the Nazis do not do this, this implies that the prior background of a Nazi-Yugoslav War is rather different than IOTL.
The butterflies from the Ustaše not coming into power during WW2 would have immense immediate consequences, some of which could butterfly Tito`s Yugoslavia away as we know it. But I digress.
To answer your question, most likely not on both accounts. There was enough hatred to go around even before the NDH, some of which dated back to the mid-19th century. By removing the nastiness of WW2 you haven`t removed the reasons why it happened. Besides, the issues between the Serbs and Croats weren`t nearly the only reason why Yugoslavia fell apart.
I find this very hard to believe. Why would the Nazis be horrified by anything the NDH was doing considering all the things they did across the whole of continental Europe, especially Poland and the occupied parts of the USSR?
Well, they`d be just like OTL actually.