22/11/63: JFK shot and LBJ has heart attack

Someone at Parkland Hospital saw LBJ and described him as "ashen faced" and feared he was having another heart attack.

So what if LBJ dies too that day?

detailed responses please if at all possible.
 
McCormack is old beyond belief, and would bow out in 1964. If he bowed out earlier or died of stress, it would fall to Carl Hayden, who is also old beyond belief and likely would bow out because of his temperament. If that happened, it would fall to Secretary of State Dean Rusk, and it is noteworthy that Kennedy wanted to replace him in a second term and did not think much of him. The intervening time would be even more a period of America and the American people lost and adrift in a sea of morose and doubt. Hello Humphrey.
 
Maybe McCormack, who served well into the 1960s becomes an inspiring President?

Is there a liberal southerner he could have as running mate?
 
Actually the succession would never get to Hayden unless McCormick dies almost immediately, since the House will elect Carl Albert as the new Speaker at the start of its next meeting and Albert takes over then as first in the line of succession. In theory the Democratic majority could elect a younger member as speaker with the understanding the McCormick would resign the Presidency in his favor, but no one is going to stand for that kind of stunt in the aftermath of the double tragedy in Dallas. McCormick is about to turn 73 (and back then that was old) and would not want to stand for election in 1964. But do we get HHH or does RFK decide he doesn't want to wait 8 or more years.
 
No Daisy ad in this TL's 1964. My history class had to watch the "Daisy" ad and we came to the consensus that it wouldn't have been half as effective at emotional manipulation had it been a little boy instead of the Daisy Girl.
 
How does HHH handle the 1965-68 period, Emps?

We can see some of this from how he handled his vice presidency. The results were things that had Johnson shut him out, because Humphrey was critiquing (not even necessarily critical) of the president, with emphasis here on Vietnam. Humphrey hoped the vice presidency would be a place he could have a resounding voice for progressivism and his view of the United States. Instead, Johnson did to Humphrey exactly what Kennedy did to Johnson, and only because he would not act as his puppet. In his silence, partially forced by Johnson and partially done out of good civic manners, Humphrey looked to the public like he was a puppet who went along with everything Johnson said and did, especially in regards to Vietnam. It was a miserable time for Humphrey, and he relayed this to Walter Mondale when he became vice president under Carter, which lead to the vice presidency being as strong and influential in terms of the presidency and politics in general as it is since 1977. Humphrey would pursue a liberal agenda, with the backing of a liberal congress. However, he is unlikely to pursue Vietnam as an ever broadening, Americanized conflict. He may also be more willing to make greater changes in his cabinet than Johnson did. Johnson did not even make the shuffle that Kennedy was intending (Rusk out, McNamara moved to Sec State, Robert Kennedy moved to Sec Def, etc). Humphrey may not throw everyone out, but he may be more willing to make changes, while also being aware of the needs of the Kennedy legacy and his inheritance of it.

Actually the succession would never get to Hayden unless McCormick dies almost immediately, since the House will elect Carl Albert as the new Speaker at the start of its next meeting and Albert takes over then as first in the line of succession. In theory the Democratic majority could elect a younger member as speaker with the understanding the McCormick would resign the Presidency in his favor, but no one is going to stand for that kind of stunt in the aftermath of the double tragedy in Dallas. McCormick is about to turn 73 (and back then that was old) and would not want to stand for election in 1964. But do we get HHH or does RFK decide he doesn't want to wait 8 or more years.

I would argue it depends on how much interest McCormack has in holding the position until 1964. The problem is that McCormack and Carl Hayden are very old men for 1963, and there is the dual issue of the daunting needs of the presidency in the nuclear age and the need for a sense of normalcy and stability. I could certainly see McCormack and Hayden agreeing to step aside immediately to allow Dean Rusk to become president. If this is not a drawn out issue (perhaps handled in the first 24 hours), I think it would work for the public confidence, and someone as young as Rusk will have more confidence than McCormack, who is very old and of whom there may be concerns that he would not live until 1964. That also opens up the issue of whether Rusk would step aside in 1964, thereby being only so much as an acting president, or if he would be pushed forward as the nominee for 1964. The party is likely to prefer someone else, but the public confidence may desire him to continue on.
 
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November 1963 was set to be a year of tremendous change for the US Government. On Monday, November 25th, a House vote was scheduled, with the aim of electing a new Speaker of the House after the resignation of former Speaker John McCormack (aged 71) due to health reasons. The Senate too was set to vote on a new appointee, after President Kennedy had relieved Secretary of Treasury Douglas Dillon, a Republican, the week before following huge behind the scenes pressure from the Democratic Party.

Late Thursday night on the 21st, President Kennedy had another heated telephone conversation with Secretary of State Dean Rusk, which ended with the President exclaiming “You know what, Dean? I think I’m going to accept that resignation of yours after all”. Kennedy signed the resignation letter the following morning whilst on Air Force One en route to Dallas airport of Love Field.

Following Kennedy’s assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, Lyndon Johnson was sworn in as President that same day aboard Air Force One just before it departed Love Field, with Jacqueline Kennedy by his side, with the photo of the event later becoming famous.

14 hours later, Gerald Blaine – a Secret Service agent detailed with looking after the new president's two-storey house in Washington heard someone walking towards the house and loudly cocked his submachine gun, in the hope that it would act as a deterrent.


He firmly pushed the stock into his shoulder, ready to fire. He'd expected the footsteps to retreat with the loud sound of the gun activating, but they kept coming closer. Blaine's heart pounded, his finger firmly on the trigger. “Let me see your face, you bastard!” Blaine shouted, as the footsteps neared. The next instant, Blaine finally got a look at the would-be assassin – it was the new President of the United States, Lyndon Baines Johnson, who had just rounded the corner. Blaine, having the gun pointed directly at the man's chest freaked out for a moment and inadvertently pulled the trigger, instantly killing Johnson in the blackness of the night.


Half an hour later, President pro tempore Carl T. Hayden, aged 86, was woken up in the middle of the night by heavily armed and extremely agitated Secret Service agents who informed him that the new President had also been shot and that there might be a coup underway, with him as the next potential target. Upon hearing the news, Hayden panicked and suffered a stroke, from which he died several minutes later.

And so began the Presidency of Robert McNamara…
 
Would the Republicans still go with Goldwater? Radicalism would probably seem less attractive amidst all this confusion.
 
Would the Republicans still go with Goldwater? Radicalism would probably seem less attractive amidst all this confusion.

In as much as they would in actual history. Even then, there are possibilities. After Kennedy's assassination, Goldwater actually dropped out of considering running for the nomination, before being convinced to make the effort. Rockefeller had been the perceived front runner, before divorcing his wife in 1963 (months prior to the assassination). Thereafter, the moderate wing turned against Rockefeller, sought there own candidate in people like Scranton, and sought to shut down Goldwater in an effort that was scrambled and divided without unity behind Rockefeller, and as Goldwater became unstoppable. In this scenario, Rockefeller is still divorced, the moderates are against him and their run is a pell-mell effort of someone besides Rockefeller while Rockefeller is still running, but Goldwater could remain out with as much likely as he would in actual history. I used that as the basis for "The Reluctant Republican", where George Romney made a run in 1964 and managed to get the nomination, albeit in that scenario I believe I had Goldwater still come back into the running but much delayed from the OTL, thus weakening him.
 
We have now got four (or three) presidencies to describe:

THe McCormack presidency
The Hayden presidency
The Rusk presidency
The McNamara presidency
 
We have now got four (or three) presidencies to describe:

THe McCormack presidency
The Hayden presidency
The Rusk presidency
The McNamara presidency

Potentially, four or three presidencies. That's the fascinating thing about the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination. It was a disruption of the assumed normalcy, and what we got was actually rather normal compared to what it could have been, because there are so many open possibilities. If Johnson died, you have two elderly men next in line who would likely prefer not to be president, Dean Rusk would may not prefer to be president, or if Johnson decided in a bipolar fit to not stand for election in 1964 (which he did have and said on occasion to people close to him that he was not going to run), you throw 1964 wide open for the Democratic nomination. If Goldwater stayed out of the nomination race or delayed his entry, you open up the Republican nomination to someone other than Goldwater, and it is less likely to be Rockefeller. If Romney decided to enter the race in 1964, he could gain traction and he was the only person Kennedy worried about competing against in 1964. If other candidates decide to run where they did not, it is the same thing. Johnson could have chosen a different VP. Robert Kennedy could have decided to make a run. Even if Johnson still stands for election, Robert Kennedy could have forced his hand with the party, and forced himself into the vice presidency just to spite Johnson. The party could have forced that regardless, making for an uncomfortable marriage. And there's the political interplay and all the policies of potential alternate figures, all against the backdrop of America in 1964 and the Cold War and the issue of Vietnam, among others. It is really an interesting point in history where you could have had so much happen, and it is ripe for timelines focused on that.
 

Bulldoggus

Banned
McCormack is old beyond belief, and would bow out in 1964. If he bowed out earlier or died of stress, it would fall to Carl Hayden, who is also old beyond belief and likely would bow out because of his temperament. If that happened, it would fall to Secretary of State Dean Rusk, and it is noteworthy that Kennedy wanted to replace him in a second term and did not think much of him. The intervening time would be even more a period of America and the American people lost and adrift in a sea of morose and doubt. Hello Humphrey.
McCormack could have made sure the Hump was elected speaker before quitting. Also, with Hayden, he could have bowed out and temporarily quit as Pro Tem so the second most senior man could take over.
 
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