2023 Turtledoves - Best Spaceflight and Technology Timeline Poll

The Best Spaceflight and Technology Timeline Is...

  • A Sound of Thunder: The Rise of the Soviet Superbooster; @nixonshead

    Votes: 80 29.0%
  • Proxima: A Human Exploration of Mars; @defconh3ck

    Votes: 82 29.7%
  • Solar Dreams: a history of solar energy (1878 - 2025); @ScorchedLight

    Votes: 44 15.9%
  • Small Steps, Giant Leaps: An Alternate History of the Space Age; @ThatCallisto, @KAL_9000 and @Exo

    Votes: 66 23.9%
  • Reach for the Skies: A Space Mad USA in 1876; @NHBL

    Votes: 43 15.6%
  • Ocean of Storms: A Timeline of A Scientific America; @BowOfOrion

    Votes: 69 25.0%
  • The narrowest of margins - WW2 U-boat ATL/ISOT; @Sbiper

    Votes: 60 21.7%
  • TL: The Milwaukee Road; @Devvy

    Votes: 17 6.2%
  • LEVIATHAN Rising: An Alternate Space Age; @Juumanistra

    Votes: 34 12.3%

  • Total voters
    276
  • Poll closed .
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I didn't raise this during nominations because I hadn't looked into it before now, and maybe I should have, but does the WW2 submarine timeline really belong here? It seems more in the genre of other ASB TLs focused on "gear-ups" (Foresight War, Arose from the Azure Main) or alternate war fleet compositions like Keynes Cruisers or The Whale Has Wings. It's less of a general technology focus, and more specifically focused on how a pair of self inserts could steer the Nazis to a war victory, which feels to me more like a conventional WW2 or (with the self-insert aspect) ASB-WW2 timeline.
 
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As someone with a career in public history and a focus in the modern world, I have to agree with e of pi's assessment - The narrowest of margins, its merits as a timeline aside, is squarely a WW2 military history timeline more than a technology history timeline, and is a clear odd man out amongst a list of nominees which all center more squarely on technology and, save for one other, incorporate an element of space. I mean no disrespect with this to anyone's work, but it really does feel something is in error here.

@Gwrtheyrn Annwn
 
I'd like to reiterate the points made above - every timeline here focuses on technology and its intersections, exploring the ways in which the things we create intersect with our lives. The Narrowest of Margins, to me at least, squarely plants itself as a military "what if" without specific focus on technology that comes with the others. I, like Callisto, do not mean to disrespect anyones work or question the effort they put into this project, but I do wonder if this was truly the correct category for their nomination. I also want to stress what E of Pi said in their earlier comment, that "It's less of a general technology focus, and more specifically focused on how a pair of self inserts could steer the Nazis to a war victory, which feels to me more like a conventional WW2 or (with the self-insert aspect) ASB-WW2 timeline" which also does not quite fit with the others present. Regardless of the lens in which this is examined, I feel it is worth a closer look.
 
The Narrowest of Margins, to me at least, squarely plants itself as a military "what if" without specific focus on technology that comes with the others.

The story does focus on tech issues, for example in regards to new U-boat designs such as TTL Type-IX design which is basically an operational version of the 1950s Skipjack design I also pointed out last week in the story that @Sbiper could have Adm. Raeder initiate a long-term research programme in 1993 TTL for fuel-cell power plants, this is something that would likely take 10 years to bare fruit.
 
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The story does focus on tech issues, for example in regards to new U-boat designs such as TTL Type-IX design which is basically an operational version of the 1950s Skipjack design I also pointed out last week in the story that SBiper could have Adm. Raeder initiate a long-term research programme in 1993 TTL for fuel-cell power plants.
It may, but The Whale has Wings also includes technical issues being worked through. It was still a (very well written and researched) timeline about preparing for and fighting an alternate WW2, not a general purpose technology focused timeline, I'd argue? I'm not saying that the timeline isn't well-researched or thought through, merely that I think it's deserving of its nomination in a different category, not this one.
 
The story does focus on tech issues, for example [...]
Just because a timeline has technology in it, or even alternate technology, does not mean it is a technology timeline. "Could-haves" and fine story details do not a category make. I'm going to hold there and wait to hear input from on high regarding The narrowest of margins' inclusion in this category, but my point stands, and I think @defconh3ck puts it best in their description of what makes a timeline specifically a technology timeline.
 
Slightly confused by this one coming from the ASB subforum. Is it about the development of new technology specifically?
Yes it fits into the development of new technology, the TL involves Admiral Reader and Donitz getting SI'ed into themselves from 1945 to 1928, it mainly focuses on the research and development of new U-boat technologies with the benefit of hindsight and a decade to better prepare for the war, allowing the Kriegsmarine's to field a fleet of highly advanced modern Submarines, that are grounded with the limitations of 1930s technology, along with the struggle to assemble the available resources in Nazi Germany to build them.

The development of Sonar and Radar technology is a major focus for the TL.
Interesting, alright, that's reasonable.
There didn't seem to be a problem before...
 
Well I will admit I didn't expect that the submarine TL would take the lead in the Spaceflight and Technology category... Although the lead is no where near as comfortable when compared to the previous winner of this category so its clearly not over for the Spaceflight TL's yet.

I do see the argument against the TL as it does carry the appearance of a simple military history timeline.

My original line of reasoning for seconding the nomination of the TL under the Technology section of this category was mainly because of the German research into the sophisticated high tech sonar and radar systems that are being developed in the TL, along with the next generation teardrop hull form for the U-boats being adopted, Germany is also installing targeting computers into their U-Boats, meanwhile fancy technologies such as the advanced 'persistent' Cathode Ray Tubes that are patented in Germany will be utilized on the surface ships by the late 1930s, a lot of money is being invested into useful German scientists and into the electronics industry and metals industry to help build all that fancy technology and the next generation U-boats that is mentioned above.

I could talk about some of the other technology stuff although most of it is military oriented, but I will cut to the fact that the Germans will be seriously developing an large expensive high-test peroxide fueled Walter turbine U-Boat engine late in the war, so technically we are going to see some super fast submarines running on some highly toxic, dangerous and explosive fuels, this HTP fuel has been used historically on rockets such as the X-15, the Black Arrow and the Soyuz rockets, so technically the U-boat TL does have a small connection to spaceflight through the use of the costly HTP fuels in resource starved Germany.
 
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If I might highlight something: every other TL nominated herein deals with technology which feasibly could have existed without supernatural intervention, and with a POD related to Space or Technology.

Every other TL save for one are under the "Alternate History Discussion: Before/After 1900" subheading, with the sole exception (Reach for the Skies) being an ASB due to a celestial event being changed/created.

All but one of the other TLs nominated incorporate space in some aspect, with the outlier (Milwaukee Road) being very solely, thoroughly, and indisputably a technology/infrastructure timeline.

The narrowest of margins has a POD involving time travel, and arguably as much of its story thus far has been about internal military and regime politics as about technological development, with said technological development being geared more towards "later-war design cues, invented earlier" as opposed to alternate design.

I stand by what's been said by myself and others here - I do not intend to pass judgement on the quality of the TL itself, only to say that its premise is radically different from all others nominated herein and that its inclusion may be in error.

Well I will admit I didn't expect that the submarine TL would take the lead in the Spaceflight and Technology category...
And if I might do some guesswork here, I would posit that the timeline's overwhelming early lead (30 votes this morning when a number of the other frontrunners had yet to crack 20) was because much of narrowest's reader base and thus voting base are more interested in WWII timelines, or ASBs, and haven't any interest in Spaceflight/Technology as a wider category, meaning they've only voted for the one TL they know.

That's more or less all I've got, and I'll step down from my soapbox now - I look forward to input from our benevolent organizers regarding where things stand. @Gwrtheyrn Annwn
 
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As you can tell, I was skeptical on first seeing that nomination as it did seem to be the odd one out. However, I have to take other users word on the nature of TLs and their suitability more subjective categories like this because I just don't have the time to check every entry individually. In this case, then, I accepted the explanation and since no objection was raised at the time, put it through to the poll.

I understand the objections to this, but at this point I'm unwilling to remove it from the poll. This is partly for administrative reasons, as removing it would require deleting the poll and making a new one which could well take most of the day, but mainly because there isn't a rule its breaking. The issues, as much as I understand them, are subjective so I would propose that, if there is demand, I amend the rules for next year's iteration to exclude SIs and uplifts.
 

Devvy

Donor
I don’t care that my thread is last in the poll by a long way, I’m just enjoying the “Like” alerts from getting from new people reading the Milwaukee Road for the first time, so thank you for the nominations! :)
 
I don’t care that my thread is last in the poll by a long way, I’m just enjoying the “Like” alerts from getting from new people reading the Milwaukee Road for the first time, so thank you for the nominations! :)
I'm glad to have seen it nominated, and glad the Turtledove is serving its role in highlighting good stuff!
 
As you can tell, I was skeptical on first seeing that nomination as it did seem to be the odd one out. However, I have to take other users word on the nature of TLs and their suitability more subjective categories like this because I just don't have the time to check every entry individually. In this case, then, I accepted the explanation and since no objection was raised at the time, put it through to the poll.

I understand the objections to this, but at this point I'm unwilling to remove it from the poll. This is partly for administrative reasons, as removing it would require deleting the poll and making a new one which could well take most of the day, but mainly because there isn't a rule its breaking. The issues, as much as I understand them, are subjective so I would propose that, if there is demand, I amend the rules for next year's iteration to exclude SIs and uplifts.
I think maybe after the voting is over, and assuming there will be this category again next year, I might make a thread or repurpose the nomination thread for some discussion of what timelines to nominate for this look like. I've been thinking over some historical threads I like which might serve as useful measures for what counts for a Space & Technology timeline rather than belonging more in other categories, and maybe others can weigh in to see if as a collective readership community we can help define some of where the line is.
 
I think maybe after the voting is over, and assuming there will be this category again next year, I might make a thread or repurpose the nomination thread for some discussion of what timelines to nominate for this look like. I've been thinking over some historical threads I like which might serve as useful measures for what counts for a Space & Technology timeline rather than belonging more in other categories, and maybe others can weigh in to see if as a collective readership community we can help define some of where the line is.
That sounds like a reasonable idea. I would prefer the categories to not be entirely bound by rules to just serve a particular community but establishing if this is for historical TLs or not would be good.
 
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