2008 American Motor Corporation

SwampTiger

Banned
On the issue of Rambler American to Vauxhall Viva/Opel Kadett sized cars, it AMC can utilize the experience with Austin building the Metropolitan to farm out uni-body construction to a lower labor cost area, build in the US Sun Belt. Utilize the accumulated experience with Ramblers and the CIBA engine to construct an American acceptable entry level car for students, second car family needs, city car or lower income families looking for a new vehicle. The used car market is huge. I didn't buy a new car until I was 26. At one time I owned seven cars which I had paid a total of $1200 to buy. New cars ran as low as $1800 in the late 60's and early 70's. This is a tough price point to match with US union labor costs. The US South was anti-union in feeling outside of a few industries.

Yes, I would prefer a small liftback/hatchback/wagon-coupe' for the Gremlin. The Tornado engine was sorta kinda okay in the Gremlin. Strongly nose heavy, good torque, minimal top end. It worked, but not inspiring without mods. A decent four cylinder will allow a lighter weight but similar or better performance. The Kadett was a decent little car here in the US.

AMC should have brought out the Tarpon slightly restyled, not the Marlin, with a liftback option, like a 240Z or early Celica fastback. I see a drag racing styled 1st-gen Mustang in the area which shows gentler curved rear roof corners. The Tarpon's squarish ridged roof edges are a real turnoff. The rear window treatment allows good views for rear passengers, but are parachutes when open. They look fast, which was the point.

I forgot the AMC 1st-gen V8 was a 250. In the US, these engines did not meet the desires of the public. A V8 must show strong acceleration, and provide good horsepower. Most Americans don't understand the difference. They want the go fast horsepower, but never use it.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I failed to remember that Vivas in South Africa, called Firenza, and the slightly bigger Chevair used Chevy II derived fours of 2.0/2.3/2.5 liters. So, an earlier POD by developing the Tornado four might be useful, if you can get sufficient power out of it.

Could AMC keep Bendix working on their fuel injection projects of the late 50's, or hook up with Bosch for their development of the Bendix system? Wonder how much would this cost? Carbs are simple, well sort of, and cheap in this era.
 

Masked Grizzly

The Jeep Tornado 6-cylinder was not used in the Gremlin as it was pensioned off to IKA in Argentina from 1965 onwards and thus was unrelated to the OTL AMC Straight-6, not sure what the weight difference is between the engines though am assuming the Tornado has more development potential to be exploited by an ATL AMC (such as being cast in aluminum, DOHCs, etc).

The South African Firenza is essentially a modified Vauxhall Viva HC, whereas the Chevrolet Chevair is derived from the mk1 Vauxhall Cavalier.

In essence would be 3 models below the ATL Rambler American during the early-1960s that are from ascending order.

1- AMC analogue of Vauxhall Viva HA/HB, powered by 967-1042cc CIBA and 1200/1300-1600cc upscaled CIBA-derived/inspired engines.
2- AMC equivalent of the mk1/mk2 Ford Cortina*, powered by 1600-2000cc upscaled CIBA-derived/inspired engines.
3- Early-60s equivalent of ATL Rambler American based AMC Spirit 3-door liftback coupe with sporty yet advanced Avanti-esque styling by Raymond Loewy, powered by updated 1978-3950cc Jeep Tornado 4/6-cylinder engines with 4-cylinder later superseded by 2000cc upscaled CIBA-derived/inspired 4-cylinder engines.

*- Another option which applies to 2 as well as 1 would be to adopt a longitudinal FWD layout for both models in the early-1960s, similar to the OTL early-1960s Mercedes-Benz W118/W119 prototypes that was derived from the two-stroke DKW F102 prior to finally entering production as the Audi F103 once DKW was sold to Volkswagen (both the OTL DKW F102 and Audi F103 being of similar size to the mk1/mk2 Ford Cortina).

Though envision this ATL AMC adopting FWD from the 1970s onwards (possibly with 4WD) for AMC models, while Packard remains welded to RWD (with optional 4WD) with Jeep producing 4WD models.
 
Last edited:

SwampTiger

Banned
Correct, I was confusing the AMC six with the Tornado. It appears the Tornado may be the better choice in the long term. There is room for improvement, increased power, fuel economy and derivatives. The small lineup is fine through late 60's if you are ready to go FWD starting in 1968-71. The Audi Fox in the US was an interesting vehicle. Testers and drivers liked it, but were confused by the FWD setup. Considering the Toronado and El Dorado barges, had the same layout, I am not sure why. AMC may build the Audi Quattro equivalent in this timeline. The medium sized cars should not go FWD with the small cars. AMC starts building the FWD medium sized cars, Hornet/Matador, with more efficient engines in 1973-75 while still keeping the Javelin/AMX and Ambassador/Hudson equivalent on the RWD platform. The big cars attract more conservative buyers. I worry about getting too far ahead of the American buyer, who sees a big barge of a car as a sign of success. AMC could begin to develop a design conducive to FWD or RWD in the same platform, a decade before Chrysler does it.
 

Kevin Renner

The Willy's Tornado had a very syrange layout IMO concerning the head design. While it featured a basically hemispherical combustion chamber it also featured a head design that used one cam lobe per cylinder. Yes you design a new head with 4 valves per cylinder and twincams. The 199 and 232 were built as test engines using an OHC set up. The engines as built used a non crossflow head. One reason for this was the way the distributor was designed. Another is running the exhaust ports past the pushrods is ot a good idea. To the best of my knowledge the only inline OHV built in the US that featured a cross flow head ws the Pontiac.But that used a bore spread of 4.625". If one looks at a cross section of the AMC inline engines and the Small Block Ford and Chevy you see a lot of similiarlities. The engine family had a lot of untapped potential. After all Navaro was getting 600 hp with stock rods and crank.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The Tornado had a few issues which could have been fixed. The engine mounts on the truck versions were on the blocks, those on the car versions were on the aluminum front cover. The resulting oil leaks did not help its reputation. The average driver failed to keep oil levels monitored, resulting in damaged engines. The use of the heavy 226 flathead derived block added extra weight to the design. Finally, the OHC design was new to many mechanics. All could be worked out in time. Most of the issues could have been addressed ahead of time.

The later, slightly lighter AMC six could benefited from these heads. It could also have benefited from a diet. It was heavy.

Are you referring to the big Pontiac 389 derived four cylinder? As half a V8, it is naturally crossflow. The pushrods will be on the intake side on V8's. Crossflow inline fours, sixes and eights are easily made in the same configuration.
 

Masked Grizzly

The two lower-end AMC models featuring a longitudinal FWD layout from the early/mid-1960s would have certainly been a better effort than the OTL US Ford Cardinal project aka later West German Ford Taunus P4, the entry-level AMC model could have even become an AMC equivalent of the Brazilian (mk1/mk2) Volkswagen Gol in terms of layout and bodystyles with an Avanti-esque Droop Snoot front. Of the view however that the early-1960s Viva HA/HB and mk1/mk2 Cortina sized AMC models would retain a conventional RWD layout until the early 1970s.

Would probably have the Javelin/AMX indirectly replaced from the 1970s onwards by a more Grand Tourer focused model utilizing a Citroen SM derived/inspired platform with conventional suspension powered by a 260-300+ hp 4-litre V8, with the Ambassador utilizing a Maserati Quattroporte II derived/inspired platform with conventional suspension powered by the same 260-300+ hp 4-litre V8 engine. That is not to say AMC would never return to using RWD on certain AMC models, it is just that the trend towards FWD was very difficult to stop even in the US with ATL AMC merely becoming successful by anticipating the trend though 4WD could be utilized on high performance models from the 1980s-1990s.

4WD would certainly be an option for both AMC and Packard on certain models though an Audi Quattro variant would depend on a number of factors such as whether the Beta-derived/inspired platform would be good enough.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
US drivers will want bigger engines than a 4 liter. AMC was forced OTL to drop to the 4.2 liter six because they had insufficient money for updating the V8. When the big three introduced their updated V8's in the 90's, the smallest were at 4.7 liter. They quickly grew larger.

I am a fan of FWD. However, I foresee the ATL AMC leaving the updated Packard flagship as RWD/AWD. Cadillac went to FWD for a short time before returning to RWD. Chrysler tried the FWD big cars with V6 engines, yet returned to V6/V8 RWD. Once the RWD sedans returned, sales of the FWD sedans dropped. This larger, better financed AMC should be able to develop a LH/LX style platform with both FWD and RWD derivatives. The market for large RWD V8 cars has not gone away.
 

Masked Grizzly

Am basically using the 4-litre V8 as an example, whether there is scope for further enlargement is another matter.

Packard would remain RWD or feature optional 4WD depending on the model. With the exception of one or two models featuring RWD (possibly with a rear/mid-engine layout), AMC would largely be FWD with optional 4WD yet like Audi and a few US carmakers would not be afraid to produce V8-engined FWD models (prior to later variants switching to 4WD).

That just leaves the question of how Jeep evolves in this ATL? Particularly whether they develop a proper rival to the Range Rover and Monteverdi Safari as well as the Volkswagen Microbus via the production versions of the 1958 Jeep FC Commuter Wagon prototype built by Reutter or 1960 Jeep FC “Wide-Trac” prototype, along with any other little known Jeep projects such as the 1977 Jeep II, etc.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I understand now.

The Jeeps can continue, with quicker changes to styles, and possibly additional models. You do realize how many jeep models were available in the 50's through 80's? The FC models were great, but will be in trouble when safety becomes a government requirement. They will continue in commercial models, but be banned from passenger use. I could see the chassis, essentially a CJ frame, being extended, widened and modified for mini-RV use in back country areas. I seem to remember Jeep may have had a luxury concept at one time. I will have to look around.
 

Masked Grizzly

Could the ATL AMC have also acquired International Harvester, if so how would it benefit AMC?

Also wonder whether AMC if necessary could acquire a motorcycle manufacturer it could then potentially rebrand under its own banner?

Although my knowledge of the US motorcycle industry is rather limited outside of Harley-Davidson, however Indian Motorcycle (during the 1950s) and Polaris Industries seem like possibilities though am otherwise ignorant of any other US motorcycle marques that AMC could acquire without too butterflies if they for example went for Harley-Davidson.
 
Last edited:

Kevin Renner

SwampTiger said:
The later, slightly lighter AMC six could benefited from these heads. It could also have benefited from a diet. It was heavy.
Click to expand...

The 258 was put on a diet circa 1980. In fact the initial blocks and heads were so thin that when clamp up in the machining equipment they broke into pieces. Later the 4.0 blocks had such a high nickel content that where the chips from maching came off of the blocks without changing color originally the 4.0 the chips cam of blue in some operations that were preformed without coolant.
 

Masked Grizzly

With Checker Motors and possibly International Harvester becoming a part of AMC, perhaps there is some value of them along with to some extent Jeep continuing to use the OTL AMC Straight-4/6 (plus 5-cylinder variant) as well as the 3rd generation AMC V8 engines (which would have otherwise been discontinued in ATL AMC cars and Packard) in additional to dieselized versions of the engines (at least until ATL Checker decides to switch to FWD/4WD)?
 

SwampTiger

Banned
KR the 4.0 heads suffered from poor casting during this period which was addressed rather quickly. The engine weight was not significantly lowered.

MG I agree with Checker and International Harvester, with IH becoming your Land Rover equivalent. I am not sure if you want to go toward motorcycles. If you do, Indian is the natural partner. A modernized CIBA engine in various sizes reminiscent of the Indian Four.

Checker with FWD is a natural. Flat floors, greater luggage capacity. An American built Suzuki Samurai would have been a hit with the youth market and retired RVers. I still see the Samurai inspired Sidekicks/Vitaras dragged around as toads.
 

Masked Grizzly

What would be the best way to reduce overlap between Jeep and International Harvester, aside from the latter being more commercial and heavy duty focused (albeit with significantly improved rust proofing) or possibly even integrated into Jeep? Additionally ATL Jeep would have to produce an alternate Range Rover challenger as a more practical analogue to the OTL IH Scout-based Monteverdi Safari.

Aside from Harley-Davidson and Indian, am not sure what other US domestic motorcycle manufacturers existed from post-WW2 onwards. AMC does not have to move into building motorcycles though it is an option since AFAIK none of the OTL US Big Three ever considered getting into motorcycles, perhaps former Indian now AMC's motorcycle division could draw inspiration from NSU and DKW (who both apparently ceased producing motorcycles in the early/mid-1960s in spite of NSU being one of the world's largest motorcycle manufacturers during the 1950s) along with Harley-Davidson as well as possibly Vespa / Piaggio at the lower-end.

The only potential issue with a Jeep JJ II (Jeepsy Junior?) challenger to the Suzuki Jimny would be the lack of sub-2000cc diesel engines.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
International Harvester had the Travelall from 1953, while Jeep produced the Wagoneer from 1962. The American market will request at some point luxury features. The Chevy Suburban was reinvented from a stripped down work-crew hauler to a soccer mom favorite. Big cars and trucks are an American specialty. American buyers only started going to diesels in the late eighties and early nineties among blue collar working class pickup truck drivers. You occasionally saw Mercedes diesels. The higher fuel economy was less an issue for Americans than towing power. For the small Jeepsy, develop a variant of the AMC/Jeep six/four into a diesel, preferably supercharged or turbocharged, use a Perkins diesel, or partner with a European or Japanese manufacturer.

After Indian or Harley, the pickings are slim. Harley tied in with Aeromacchi for smaller bikes in the 60's and 70's. Indian tried a small bike in the 40's and 50's based on the Royal Enfield 250 called the Brave. Very forgettable. The US motorcycle market has never been imposing.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
In regard to the mini-Jeep, the Samurai is essentially the same size as a CJ-2 or CJ-3. You could make a few minor changes, add full doors with a roll-bar, and use a 1.5-1.8 liter engine for US sales or smaller gas and diesel engines for other markets.
 

Masked Grizzly

Seem to recall Jeep actually looking at larger models roughly precursors of sort to the OTL Range Rover and Mercedes-Benz G-Class during the 1960s-1980s. Was thinking that AMC acquires International Harvester during the 1960s.

Is it known whether the AMC V8 was capable of being dieselized in the same way the OTL AMC Straight-4/6 was (akin to an AMC Oldsmobile V8 Diesel)? Am concerned both the AMC Straight-4/6 and AMC V8 engines would be too large and heavy to be utilized in Checker / AMC Taxis after the switch to FWD in the late-1970s / early-to-mid-1980s, since such engines would only be useful to Jeep / International Harvester by that point.

Also wonder whether there is any value in developing a 3.1-5.0-litre 90-degree V6 off of the AMC V8 for commercial use.

A car like the Jeep II / Jeepsy / Jeep JJ would likely need a diesel of around 1600-2000cc, which could either be developed in-house via a dieselized version of the 1000-2000cc 4-cylinder petrol derived from the 60-degree V6 or sourced from Renault, Fiat, Peugeot/PSA, Perkins, VM Motori, Mitsubishi and Isuzu.

Not sure of the exact dimensions of the 1977 Jeep II prototype apart from being 2 feet / 24 inches shorter and 9 inches lower than a Jeep CJ-5, though was thinking of a entry-level Jeep with a possible wheelbase of 76 inches / 1930mm (similar to the 1st generation Suzuki Jimny) that grows in line with the larger Jeep CJ / Wrangler and is powered by either initially an aging 967-1042cc CIBA (or upscaled 1200-2000cc CIBA-derived) 4-cylinder for non-Western markets or 1.0-2.0 4-cylinder engines derived from 60-degree V6 (or even related inline-3 variants) along with 1.6-2.0 diesel/turbodiesel engines.

Acquiring Indian would potentially allow ATL AMC to be one of the few company's to build both cars and motorcycles under the same marque such as BMW, Honda, Peugeot and Suzuki as well as formerly DKW, NSU, Puch and Triumph. Notwithstanding the fact OTL British motorcycle company that also existed under the AMC name until 1966 albeit as Associated Motor Cycles.
 
Last edited:
Simon

Simon

SwampTiger said:
Before the company left US auto production in 1955, Henry Kaiser should have offered to fold the division into the fledgling AMC as a separate company from Kaiser Industries.
Click to expand...
I don't think adding yet another marque to the company would have been a good idea but AMC making a bid for Willys certainly has appeal, although I'm not sure how logical that would have been at the time and how much of that is hindsight. If they had come to an amicable agreement then it would potentially open up several defence-related possibilities that often get ignored in threads like these.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top