2008 American Motor Corporation

Masked Grizzly

A 1042cc CIBA engine should theoretically be putting out 38 hp.

The following article mentions Lloyd Taylor the original designer of the "tin engine" producing in 1958 a "Super Sports" engine, a 2-litre tine engine putting out 145 hp though it never reached production like the original Crosley engines. Taylor was still making fabricated steel engines and attempting to sell his ideas well into the 1980s, developing a 150 hp and 186 version that passed California emission tests in 1981.

All the more reason why Nash / AMC should have hired the services of Lloyd Taylor during the 1950s onwards.
 

Masked Grizzly

The problem is Donald Healey was fully committed to working with Austin / BMC in developing the Austin-Healey 100, additionally a Metropolitan-sized sportscar would likely still be too heavy even with the CIBA engine and available displacement whereas an A30/A35-based sportscar akin to the Midget/Sprite would be even smaller and lighter. It would be like putting a 0.95-1.3 engine from the MG Midget into the 1.5-1.6 MGA.

That is not to say the ATL 4-door Metropolitan could not itself form the basis of a larger MGA/MGB-like sportscar (similar to OTL 1952-1954 Jensen 504 prototype* - sketch for original roadster prototype).


*- The Jensen 504 prototype was designed by Eric Neale and powered by a 1.5 B-Series, it was developed a follow up to the Austin A40 Sports as part of a competition Austin / BMC's Leonard Lord set up to design a sports car for Austin involving Healey (who developed the Healey 100), Jensen (who developed the Jensen 504) and Frazer Nash (who developed the Frazer Nash Targa Florio powered by the 2.6 Austin engine). However Jensen was unable to produce its proposal in time for the 1952 London Motor Show (due to a lack of certain parts delaying it) with Lord adopting the Healey 100 to create the Austin-Healey 100 upon viewing it.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I don't think you need Healey's direct involvement, unless you want his name attached. You have the Nash-Healey design and several successful designers on staff, do it yourself.

The design concept behind the CoBra and CIBA engines was light weight and high power in a small package. Once Nash is able to accept the concept, their engines get lighter and more powerful without the loss of fuel efficiency. The 724 CIBA got 26.5 HP with 7.5:1 compression ratio, and 30 HP when raised to 8:1. Fageol took the standard engine to 9:1 compression and 35 HP for its outboard motors, with the same basic 44 cubic inch (724 cc) engine dimensions using turbulance producing pistons to counter detonation.

Using the 59 cubic inch (973 cc) engine, you get 40 HP at 8:1 and 47 hp at 9:1, plus additional torque. The 64 cubic inch (1042) engine would provide 43 and 50 HP with a greater increase in torque. AMC could scale the CIBA engine up to allow 1.2 to 1.6 liters with much reduced weight, higher power and very good fuel efficiency. An A40 sized car would be a better performer with this engine than the A and B series anchors. Use the engine with a four speed manual, and shrink the Ultramatic or copy the Powerglide for an efficient automatic.

The American market was moving away from tiny cars. The A40 92 inch wheelbase would be as small as I would go. The next step up is the 100 inch wheelbase Rambler American, then the 108 inch wheelbase Rambler. With Taylor's concepts adapted to AMC's engine line, you would match Studebaker's supercharged cars and the new second generation V-8's with smaller, equally powerful and lighter vehicles.
 
Simon

Simon

Masked Grizzly said:
Am sure there is more projects / prototypes, though it gives a rough idea as how AMC could potentially survive and thrive.
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Budd's proposal for the XR-400 is interesting if not without some risk. They were apparently saying that they could have production going by the start of fourth quarter 1963 which would be six months ahead of Ford and the Mustang.


SwampTiger said:
I don't expect Studebaker to be involved at all. If Packard had done their due diligence on Studebaker's financial condition, they would have run away screaming in horror!
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Alternatively an idea someone posted on a previous thread is that they buy it sooner. IIRC Studebaker went into receivership in the early 1930s thanks to the economic downturn and some questionable purchases, however they raised new financing, re-organised, expanded the dealership base, and were back in profit in less than a year. If Packard had spotted an opportunity and made a approach in say the first three or four months of that nine month period with a reasonable offer I think the shareholders would have said thank you very much and taken the money.
 

Masked Grizzly

Would have AMC develop a scaled-up version of the CIBA engine with displacements ranging from 1200-1800cc with scope for 2000cc, the latter which may or may not have been given the production green light to replace the hypothetical 80-124 hp 1978cc Jeep Tornado (aka ATL AMC Straight-4) 4-cylinder engine.

To clarify the Austin Cambridge A40/A50/A55 (envisioned as the basis for a ATL 4-door Metropolitan) that is likely related to the OTL Metropolitan featured a wheelbase of 99.25 inches (and was unrelated to the previous Austin A40 with 92 inch wheelbase), the BMC Farina B-based Austin Cambridge (A55 mk2 / A60) featured a wheelbase of 99-100 inches.

The ATL AMC Crosmobile / Crospolitan (or AMC Cosmopolitan / Cosmobile / Cosmo?) could have been derived from an enlarged Austin A30/35 as the later Austin A40 Farina featured wheelbases of 83.5-87 inches. A suitable template for an early-1960s entry-level AMC model that fits your 92 inch wheelbase target would have to be the related Vauxhall HA/HB Viva (aka OTL Envoy Epic) and Opel Kadett A/B.

Simon said:
Budd's proposal for the XR-400 is interesting if not without some risk. They were apparently saying that they could have production going by the start of fourth quarter 1963 which would be six months ahead of Ford and the Mustang.
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Fascinating. Would be interesting to see what other viable OTL prototypes / concepts exist that have some connection with AMC or precursor carmakers.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Masked Grizzly said:
Would have AMC develop a scaled-up version of the CIBA engine with displacements ranging from 1200-1800cc with scope for 2000cc, the latter which may or may not have been given the production green light to replace the hypothetical 80-124 hp 1978cc Jeep Tornado (aka ATL AMC Straight-4) 4-cylinder engine.

To clarify the Austin Cambridge A40/A50/A55 (envisioned as the basis for a ATL 4-door Metropolitan) that is likely related to the OTL Metropolitan featured a wheelbase of 99.25 inches (and was unrelated to the previous Austin A40 with 92 inch wheelbase), the BMC Farina B-based Austin Cambridge (A55 mk2 / A60) featured a wheelbase of 99-100 inches.

The ATL AMC Crosmobile / Crospolitan (or AMC Cosmopolitan / Cosmobile / Cosmo?) could have been derived from an enlarged Austin A30/35 as the later Austin A40 Farina featured wheelbases of 83.5-87 inches. A suitable template for an early-1960s entry-level AMC model that fits your 92 inch wheelbase target would have to be the related Vauxhall HA/HB Viva (aka OTL Envoy Epic) and Opel Kadett A/B.



Fascinating. Would be interesting to see what other viable OTL prototypes / concepts exist that have some connection with AMC or precursor carmakers.
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The ATL AMC would still need an engine in the 2.2-2.6 liter range. It could be a 4 cylinder version of the Tornado six, an enlarged CIBA 1.6-1.8 liter or a six cylinder version of the bigger CIBA. If using the engine for export, you need to watch target nations' displacement policy. Considering I once owned a Datsun 240Z, I'm partial to the six.

Yes, I was thinking of the 92 inch wheelbase A40. Nash American was a 100 inch wheelbase 2 door. A 4 door sedan, station wagon, sedan delivery, and utility truck/coupe would be nice in the 100 inch category. The 90-95 inch wheelbase category is for entry level or export markets. Also, which transmissions do we start with. The ubiquitous three and four speed manuals are off the shelf. But our new firm has two different automatics.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The Budd XR-400 is interesting, but why the extension in the firewall. It results in limited rear legroom. Coupe and convertible versions of the Rambler Tarpon could use the new 1963/4 model front clip. Like the Barracuda/Valiant.

The Borg-Warner used by Kaiser, Nash and Hudson. Packard had the Ultramatic. Maybe combine the best features of both designs? Developed into large and small car versions.

Packard had the Torsion-Level suspension. Can we carry this over?

Would NASCAR allow a revised OHC lightweight 394 Packard engine in a special aerodynamic version of the Tarpon with Torsion-Level suspension to run in races? Lemans anyone?
 
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SwampTiger

Banned
A Maybach is an ultra-luxury auto which Mercedes Benz builds since 1997. It is slotted above the top line MB models.

Maybach began when the founder opened a zeppelin engine firm in the early 1900's. He branched out into a variety of ares, including luxury autos. During WW2, the firm built large tank engines. After the war, the auto plant closed, what was left of it. Mercedes Benz bought the company in 1960. Under MB, it produced several Mercedes cars. Rolls Royce continued manufacture of its large diesel engines under the MTU name.

Don't worry most people have no clue of the company. Sort of like the Cord 810/12. If you aren't a car buff, you probably never heard of it.

Note: I goofed on Nash, Kaiser and Hudson use of Borg-Warner automatics. They used GM Hydra-Matics, the first really successful production automatic transmission.
 

Masked Grizzly

SwampTiger said:
The ATL AMC would still need an engine in the 2.2-2.6 liter range. It could be a 4 cylinder version of the Tornado six, an enlarged CIBA 1.6-1.8 liter or a six cylinder version of the bigger CIBA. If using the engine for export, you need to watch target nations' displacement policy. Considering I once owned a Datsun 240Z, I'm partial to the six.

Yes, I was thinking of the 92 inch wheelbase A40. Nash American was a 100 inch wheelbase 2 door. A 4 door sedan, station wagon, sedan delivery, and utility truck/coupe would be nice in the 100 inch category. The 90-95 inch wheelbase category is for entry level or export markets. Also, which transmissions do we start with. The ubiquitous three and four speed manuals are off the shelf. But our new firm has two different automatics.
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Would probably stick with a 4-cylinder version of the Tornado 6-cylinder as a 3950cc 6-cylinder variant minus 2-cylinders would spawn a 4-cylinder with a displacement of 2633cc, since that is the safest option given its robustness.

An inline-6 version of the upscaled 1.6-1.8 (plus 2-litre) CIBA-derived engine would depend on its reliability, though an argument could be made for a downscaled 1.2-1.8 (plus 2-litre) 4-cylinder / 2.0-2.7 (plus 3-litre) 6-cylinder version of the Tornado 4/6-cylinder on the basis of the latter's robustness.

The 99.25-100 inch wheelbase 4-door (Austin Cambridge-based) 1.5+ Metropolitan could replace the 100 inch wheelbase 2-door Nash Rambler from 1953 onwards (albeit also potentially butterfly away the 1st and 2nd generation Rambler American), while the latter uses a 108 inch wheelbase for 4-door Ramblers and Rambler Classics. Am doubtful the Metropolitan is able to spawn a 4-door version based on a 92 inch wheelbase though a 95 inch wheelbase might be somewhat doable.

A Viva HA/HB-sized entry-level AMC model with a 92-inch wheelbase could feature similar styling to the Studebaker Avanti by Raymond Loewy or the 3rd generation Rambler American by Richard Teague.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
We seem to be on the same page. You need to remember the Tornado's robustness is partly due to its weight, 500 lbs. It was the heaviest of the last generation straight sixes. The Chevy was 440 lbs. The 4 cylinder Chevy II derived from the six was 350 lbs. You could beef up the enlarged CIBA and under cut the Chevy substantially. The 170-250 Fords weighed 385 lbs.

AM General made a 1.8 liter air-cooled V-4 for the Mighty Mite M422, with 52 hp and 90 lb-ft of torque in 1960. Shows what they were capable of designing.

I also found a 1977 mini-van show car-the Concept 80 AM Van, an early small SUV.
 

Masked Grizzly

Outside of military applications the air-cooled 1.8 V4 in the M422 Mighty Mite is rather unimpressive.

What would have be interesting is having an ATL AMC manage to anticipate and thus greatly profit from the various fuel crises during the 1970s, thanks to the upscaled CIBA-derived/inspired 1.2-1.8/2.0 4-cylinder with the 2.0-2.6 4-cylinder / 3.0-4.0 6-cylinder Tornado engines superseded by a Fiat 130-derived/inspired 60-degree V6 or Maserati-derived/inspired 90-degree V6/V8 engines.

Not sold on the AMC Concept 80 AM Van, especially if AMC begins switching to FWD from the late-1960s to mid-1970s that would essentially butterfly away most if not all AMC's OTL post-1970s models including the styling language (assuming the Avanti-esque styling language by Raymond Loewy is adopted during the early-1960s).
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Yes, the 1.8 liter V-4 is unimpressive. However, give it overhead cams, watercooling, and stress it more than the military requirement, and it will produce 80-100 hp in a small compact package. It would be useful in small cars and in FWD packages. If you add two cylinders for a 120-150 hp 2.7 liter V-6, you have futuristic engine for 1965/7. My 1967 289 Mustang was rated for 200 hp.

The AM Van would be butterflied away in the ATL, by changes to AMC. You could beat Chrysler to the FWD mini-van market. I am trying to show what they did with very minimal resources.

I like the Fiat and Citroen/Maserati V-6 ideas, assuming the engineering staff doesn't produce something better.
 

Masked Grizzly

A V6 derived from the V4 might be workable, though the latter featuring a 60-degree angle is likely to have a infamous reputation like Ford's own Taunus and Essex V4 engines.

AMC would not buy the rights to use the Fiat and Citroen/Maserati V6s (like they did with the 2-litre VW/Audi engine for the AMC Gremlin), rather they would collaborate with Fiat and Citroen (who were both close to each other at one point) on both engines as well as platforms.

Another way AMC's own engineers would develop their own engines would be to either draw inspiration from other engine designs (like how the Chrysler 180 engine was influenced by the BMW M10) or if necessary, reverse engineer (e.g. akin to the Canadian Ford Essex V6 being a reverse engineered Buick V6) designs from other carmakers.

Two interesting scenarios (though unsure how realistic they are) would be a better capitalized ATL AMC bringing the OTL 3rd generation Rambler American forward by a few years to butterfly away the 2nd generation Rambler American, along with an early/mid-1960s AMC Gremlin featuring an Avanti-esque front-end being developed from the ATL 2nd generation Rambler American (to slot-above the entry-level Viva HA/HB-sized CIBA powered AMC model).
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The vibrations caused by inappropriate cylinder angles was solved for 90-degree V-6's was solved. AMC would solve the problem for the V-4. AMC collaborated with international companies OTL, so cooperating with Fiat/Citroen/Maserati is likely.

Masked Grizzly said:
A V6 derived from the V4 might be workable, though the latter featuring a 60-degree angle is likely to have a infamous reputation like Ford's own Taunus and Essex V4 engines.

Two interesting scenarios (though unsure how realistic they are) would be a better capitalized ATL AMC bringing the OTL 3rd generation Rambler American forward by a few years to butterfly away the 2nd generation Rambler American, along with an early/mid-1960s AMC Gremlin featuring an Avanti-esque front-end being developed from the ATL 2nd generation Rambler American (to slot-above the entry-level Viva HA/HB-sized CIBA powered AMC model).
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This is very promising. Maybe this Gremlin has a prettier rear end. Does ATL AMC keep the Ambassador/Hornet names? Do they still use the Matador name? How much will they risk on specialty designs and new products? Would they go for all-independent four wheel drive Jeeps and an earlier introduction of ATL Eagles? Would we see a mid-engined AMX?
 

Masked Grizzly

The post-1957 Nash Ambassadors would likely be butterflied away by a flagship Packard, with post-1970s Packard variants being powered by 260-280+ hp 4.0+ V8 and 242-552 hp 5.0-7.7 V12 engines. Would be interesting to see how this ATL Packard approaches going downmarket in the years ahead without adopting FWD.

The ATL Matador would likely be derived/inspired by a FWD/4WD Maserati Quattroporte II platform with conventional suspension and powered by 200-280+ hp 3.3-4.0 V8s (derived from 150-220+ hp 2.5-3.0+ 90-degree Maserati-based V6 - which would be utilized in Jeeps), while the ATL Hornet would be derived/inspired by a FWD/4WD Citroen CX/Lancia Gamma (plus Citroen SM) platform with conventional suspension and powered by 122/144-276 hp 2.5-3.85 V6s (derived from 2.8-3.2/3.5 60-degree Fiat 130-based V6).

Below the ATL Hornet the AMC range would feature two additional models under new names. One derived/inspired by a FWD/4WD Lancia Beta/Trevi/Monte Carlo platform and powered by 90-143+ hp 1.6-2.0 4-cylinder engines (derived from Fiat 130 V6-based Fiat 128 SOHC) as well as 2.5-3.0 60-degree V6s, while another would be derived/inspired by a FWD/4WD Fiat 128 / Fiat Ritmo or Lancia Delta platform and powered by 49-143+ hp 1.0-2.0 4-cylinder engines (derived from Fiat 130 V6-based Fiat 128 SOHC).

Am undecided on whether AMC should produce further entry-level cars derived/inspired by the Autobianchi A112 and Fiat 127 platforms, at least with the Fiat 128 / Fiat Ritmo both would allow for a AMC analogue of the Fiat X1/9 if they were inclined.
 
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SwampTiger

Banned
If we did this correctly, AMC should inspire Fiat/etal, rather than the other way around.

I am leaning to allowing the Hornet name go to the Matador line. You then use Gremlin/Spirit/Tarpon/American for the Hornet line. Hudson used Wasp and Jet as names. You could revive these. Gremlin could go to a slightly larger analogue to the Fiat X1/9. Use Metropolitan for the entry level car.
 

Masked Grizzly

Do not think its possible for AMC to inspire Fiat as the latter produced the FWD Autobianchi Primula designed by Dante Giacosa in 1964, under different circumstances (both pre-war during the Topolino project and early post-war) Fiat would have likely adopted FWD much earlier compared to OTL with the ATL 1953 FWD Fiat 1100/103 (that was initially set to feature a 944cc V4 akin to the Ford Taunus P4 and all-independent suspension) and even an ATL FWD Fiat 600.

Admittingly the model names could do with more work though Hornet does not really belong on what would essentially be a replacement for the Ambassador, Gremlin would probably suit an AMC derived from a Fiat Ritmo platform.
 
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