19th century "For All Time"?

[Aluma]

If you balkanize Brazil you could have slavery last almost indefinitely in South America
The tricky part is that a couple of our rebellions were against slavery(Farrapos the main one) but it could still work
Paraguay could certainly take advantage of that in their fantasies of Empire building that might not be so much a fantasy anymore, and considering they still held upon slavery while also having a serfdom-like system and the Lopez Family owned not only the government but pretty much all of the country's land North Korea style it might for the best to keep them around as much as having Paraguay be wiped out may be tempting when trying to create the most dystopic 19th century

 

[NedStark]

Well, he's got voting reform and the Chartists he can clamp down on hard, whilst promoting the paramilitary Orange Order at home, plus of course also ruling Hannover, however knock-on effects there want to go

If a Revolution actually occurred in Britain during that period, it would have swiftly succeeded, because Britain had a small army AND more importantly, Britain was no longer rural majority unlike 1848 France. The Republic would have come into existence pretty quickly.

Not a dictatorship per se, but "WI: Westminster keeps dragging its feet on expanding the franchise. Also, Peterloo keeps repeating"?

Revolution, that's it.

It does so, and combined with the lack of a monarchist France invading Mexico, this pushes Mexico to be a bit nicer to the CSA in hopes of getting it back.

I don't think Benito Juarez would have backed the CSA. And if the CSA backs the Conservatives while the US backs Benito, it goes back to OTL.

I don't have a plan B. I have 12% of a plan B. Tsar Nicholas I dies during the Revolutions of 1848. Consequentially, the Austro-Hungarian Empire is not propped up by Russian bayonets and collapses. This leads to a longer lived Hungarian Republic and a hastily cobbled together German Republic (with what could be grabbed of Austria).

Have the British Revolution occurring a few years before 1848 using Ernest Augustus POD. Then then when 1848 revolutions occur, Britain would be a major sponsor of republican revolutionaries through:

1) Arming republicans across Europe, mostly in Italy and Germany.

2) Italy: ferrying Italian revolutionaries from Italy to Dalmatia.

3) Maybe try something funny in the Low Countries short of direct military invasion.

By the end of 1848, Italy, France, Hungary, maybe Belgium and the Netherlands as well, would have become republics. Germany would have become a total mess (let's face it, uniting Germany into a single republic would have required overthrowing 30+ kings and princes - which is near ASB). In the end, an autocratic Prussian-dominated Greater German Empire is formed and allied with Russia, due to being surrounded by 1848 republics.

 

[PobreCesar]

I don't think Benito Juarez would have backed the CSA. And if the CSA backs the Conservatives while the US backs Benito, it goes back to OTL.

True. But that assumes he's still in charge. I'm not overly burdened with an understanding of the Reform War, but perhaps the conservatives can win? Or an apolitical junta comes to power and sides with the CSA out of a mixture of revanchism and realpolitik?

uniting Germany into a single republic would have required overthrowing 30+ kings and princes - which is near ASB)

Maybe, but trying could get us off to a start with the requisite revolutionary bloodshed quota of TTL

Have the British Revolution occurring a few years before 1848 using Ernest Augustus POD.

Good thinking. We now have 23% of a plan

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Have the rebellions of 1848 take on a radical and racial bent, leading to a much earlier rise of fascism, and have all the horrors it unleashed in the 1930s and 40s visited upon a world without modern vehicles to speed up the process, leading to extremely drawn out warfare lasting decades. Chuck in a plague or two. Have assembly line manufacturing being adopted earlier, only this time round it makes extensive use of slavery leading to industrial societies keeping or adopting that particular horror. You could also introduce crop damaging parasites similar to the blight that led to Irish potato famine. If you really wanted to go nuts have large scale volcanic activity create another little ice age, or have the La Palma rockslide tidal wave event happen.

That sounds pretty miserable definitely. Maybe the 19th century equivalent of the Glorious People's Revolutionary Hammer is a massive load of explosives set up by, let's say, a group of Carlist extremists in the Canarian Islands, meant to trigger the La Palma rock slide if anyone messes with them?

 

[spectrum]

I was thinking something along the lines of the Spanish radical anarchists striking back after losing a war over Cuba to the Confederate or Union kleptocracies.

 

[NedStark]

Maybe, but trying could get us off to a start with the requisite revolutionary bloodshed quota of TTL

That's it. This scenario would create a Cold War 100 years early, with an Absolute Monarchy East versus a Republic West.

 

[Aluma]

Perhaps you could mimick the glorious rule of Emperor Bokassa with Napoleon, I mean he was a Nappy-wannabe anyways so using the original here seems fitting
Of course our Nappy wasnt a psycho cannibal but you could push things further by having the french army be even more starved in Russia and maybe during the Sixth Coalition(I guess if Napoleon still kept winning against all odds) the alliance tries to starve off France using a blockade(call it karmic punishment for the Continental System) causing all order to break down there

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Perhaps you could mimick the glorious rule of Emperor Bokassa with Napoleon, I mean he was a Nappy-wannabe anyways so using the original here seems fitting
Of course our Nappy wasnt a psycho cannibal but you could push things further by having the french army be even more starved in Russia and maybe during the Sixth Coalition(I guess if Napoleon still kept winning against all odds) the alliance tries to starve off France using a blockade(call it karmic punishment for the Continental System) causing all order to break down there

Or possibly with Napoleon II, with him not dying in 1832 and later doing much of the same that his father did decades earlier.

Also, regarding the aforementioned Taiping: why not have them (or the Qing) re-enact that one meme-worthy part of the battle of Suiyang? Granted, there wouldn't be tins of "pork" shipped out of the country, but can't have everything, I guess.

 

[Jedi Dragon]

more border states(Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, etc.) wind up joining the Confederacy.

A nitpick, but slavery was on the verge of abolition in Delaware, so they almost certainly wouldn't secede. The others definitely could though. Lincoln didn't believe the Union could win without Kentucky, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

 

[Wendell]

What about bumping off Napoleon III before 1851 or Queen Victoria before 1848?

 

[NedStark]

What about bumping off Napoleon III before 1851 or Queen Victoria before 1848?

Britain: If the king is Ernest Augustus, Britain might have become a republic. But the existence of a large liberal urban population, the lack of a large standing army, and the strong tradition of representative government would have ensured a rather smooth transition.

France: if Napoleon is off before 1849, De Cavaignac would have remained President of the Second Republic. Foreign policy would have been more conservative, focus more on colonization. Franco-Prussian War could have been butterflied away. Napoleon is off between 1849 and 1851 would have been more interesting.

 

[Wendell]

What about switching the thrones of Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Otto of Bavaria so that the former gets Greece and the latter Belgium?

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

What about switching the thrones of Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Otto of Bavaria so that the former gets Greece and the latter Belgium?

Why? Granted, the idea is novel.

 

[Wendell]

Why? Granted, the idea is novel.

Well, given that Leopold I was probably the more competent of the two, Greece may be in better shape in this timeline earlier, and if his TTL progeny are anything like OTL's, thy won't be above that worst of Balkan traditions; ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile, Otto could completely screw up in Belgium and, if he lacks legitimate descendants as per OTL, then Belgium is in for a treat given who ruled France in that era.

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

Happened to remember an old idea of mine: the Namamugi Incident of 1862 (or an equivalent in an alternate timeline) results in a full-scale war between Britain and Japan, and Japan becomes a British client state. Would this be plausible?

 

[Whiteshore]

What would be equivalent to how a more hardline Stalinist Soviet Bloc in For All Time, before it came crashing down with Chikatilo, was the closest thing to a world-hegemon there? The Concert of Europe lasting longer?

 

[Aluma]

Happened to remember an old idea of mine: the Namamugi Incident of 1862 (or an equivalent in an alternate timeline) results in a full-scale war between Britain and Japan, and Japan becomes a British client state. Would this be plausible?

Combine that with the Christie Question turning into a full-escale war between Brazil & Britain while the Paraguayan War is happening and its essencially a worldwar already

 

[New Cleo Genesis]

What would be equivalent to how a more hardline Stalinist Soviet Bloc in For All Time, before it came crashing down with Chikatilo, was the closest thing to a world-hegemon there? The Concert of Europe lasting longer?

I'm actually not sure. I'm somewhat thinking of the Taiping again, but something dystopian happening to either France or Germany (or maybe even the UK, though they work better as a USA analogue IMO) would probably be much more plausible.

Combine that with the Christie Question turning into a full-escale war between Brazil & Britain while the Paraguayan War is happening and its essencially a worldwar already

Perfect, shows that the idea could conceivably work with a point of divergence as late as the 1860's.

 

[PobreCesar]

equivalent to how a more hardline Stalinist Soviet Bloc in For All Time

or maybe even the UK, though they work better as a USA analogue IMO

Perhaps the US as the USSR analogue in keeping with the UK=US idea?

 

[Aluma]

I'm actually not sure. I'm somewhat thinking of the Taiping again, but something dystopian happening to either France or Germany (or maybe even the UK, though they work better as a USA analogue IMO)

Maybe you could get both the US and Taiping to get along due to some european power intervening both in the Civil War and the rebellion, becoming the target of the ire of both
I could see either Britain or France(or both) serving this function, I mean none of them was particularly inclined to support the CSA IOTL this is For All Time and Turtledove already used this plot device before, though you could give it some plausibility with Britain(the better suited hatesink for this scenario due to how powerful they are) merely giving supplies to one or two cities with their citizens during the war and the US mistaking that as a british-confederate alliance

That way you get a America-China Axis being rivals with a Brazil-Japan one(if we go by my previous idea), but with both sides mutually hating the europeans

Then to hamp up the dystopia flavour you could have the victorious US be the embodiment of "evil North" butchering the Reconstruction all the way, causing the South to become KKKland and having Mexico actually accepting the confederates moving there bringing slavery with them(something they outright rejected IOTL on moral grounds, but whats morality here?), expanding into Central America to become a sort-of Golden Circle under murder-happy government like that of Calles
Meanwhile Taiping China goes full theocratic maoism as you'd expect, but now they're the US's best friend as well!