1976 Soviets occupied North America

[cpip]

I don't see how the Soviets putting a man on the Moon before the US and having all of Germany somehow means they'll ever be in a place where they can invade the United States. Even if all of Europe was satellites of the USSR, they still wouldn't stand a chance in hell of invading the United States, and that's before you get to nuclear weapons.

Okay, let's go for a long-shot here. Is this really, really implausible? Yep. So let's give it a go, based on what @lwhitehead has given us.

So the Soviet Union has managed to Win the Space Race in the 60s, making practical advances in rocketry and metallurgy that took longer for them OTL. The US lost the Korean War in the 50s, and the Sino-Soviet split doesn't happen. Let's allow that Western Europe ends up drifting more pro-Soviet than they did OTL, even. Throw in the stereotypical "America turns back inwards" motif, withdrawing from socialist Europe (possibly being encouraged to leave). The movement for nuclear disarmament increases, and it slows American nuclear development.

Korolev gets the N-1 working, and sooner, before his death. Someone in the Soviet Union gets Pournelle's research in the 50s from Boeing on the idea of Rods From God, or comes up with it themselves; either way, the combination of improved rocketry and metallurgy means that by 1970, the Soviets have managed to put in numerous orbital kinetic bombardment tungsten weapons. They have the high ground.

Using the threat of unleashing kinetic weaponry, the Soviet Union, leading the "peace-loving nations of Europe and Asia", demands that "the warmongering, imperialist United States" stand down. Perhaps there's an initial resistance -- and then tungsten rods smash into some American city, destroying it. Chicago, or St. Louis, or something: something inland. A few of these, and the American government capitulates, and a Soviet-led occupation force moves into America to secure their nuclear weaponry.

This is all ridiculously improbable, but it could all be strung together, I suppose.

I've got nothing for the idea of a Secret White Russian Resistance movement, though. That seems a bit odd to me.

 

[lwhitehead]

1: USSR Developed the A-Bomb First how would really the USSR of capable of creating the A-Bomb before the USA?,

2: Food and Cosumables shortages, USSR in our timeframe and world had a shorts of Food and Cosumables is there away around this without heading into ASB land?.

LW

 

[Wendell]

FDR taps James Byrnes for the fourth term. Things go really sideways from there. Japan is subject to a ground invasion instead of the atom bombs. Byrnes gives away Germany, and the British and French build with the low countries and Salazar a western defensive alliance. The constant distraction in Japan leads the American to drop the ball with Italy, which, like Germany, is effectively pro-Soviet. Plans to implement the UN get shelved by the growing clustershag in Japan, where now Soviet arms and infiltrators are appearing on the side of the Japanese defenders. Things deteriorate further from here.

 

[Ludwig von Stieglitz]

The soviets had abandoned any idea of invading north america by the early 60s.
There is 0 chance ever .in any time during the colsld war, that they can do that.
You should move this thread to the ASB forum

 

[Arkenfolm]

Okay, let's go for a long-shot here. Is this really, really implausible? Yep. So let's give it a go, based on what @lwhitehead has given us.

So the Soviet Union has managed to Win the Space Race in the 60s, making practical advances in rocketry and metallurgy that took longer for them OTL. The US lost the Korean War in the 50s, and the Sino-Soviet split doesn't happen. Let's allow that Western Europe ends up drifting more pro-Soviet than they did OTL, even. Throw in the stereotypical "America turns back inwards" motif, withdrawing from socialist Europe (possibly being encouraged to leave). The movement for nuclear disarmament increases, and it slows American nuclear development.

Korolev gets the N-1 working, and sooner, before his death. Someone in the Soviet Union gets Pournelle's research in the 50s from Boeing on the idea of Rods From God, or comes up with it themselves; either way, the combination of improved rocketry and metallurgy means that by 1970, the Soviets have managed to put in numerous orbital kinetic bombardment tungsten weapons. They have the high ground.

Using the threat of unleashing kinetic weaponry, the Soviet Union, leading the "peace-loving nations of Europe and Asia", demands that "the warmongering, imperialist United States" stand down. Perhaps there's an initial resistance -- and then tungsten rods smash into some American city, destroying it. Chicago, or St. Louis, or something: something inland. A few of these, and the American government capitulates, and a Soviet-led occupation force moves into America to secure their nuclear weaponry.

This is all ridiculously improbable, but it could all be strung together, I suppose.

I've got nothing for the idea of a Secret White Russian Resistance movement, though. That seems a bit odd to me.

The problem is kinetic bombardment is functionally little different than nuking a city, the main difference being the lack of radiation. If the US wasn't planning on surrendering when nuclear strikes would hit Chicago or St. Louis, then they wouldn't surrender when a kinetic strike hit those cities.

 

[Ludwig von Stieglitz]

Implausible is not the same as ASB.

Depends...this is more implausible than sealion going smooth with britons welcoming german invaders with flowers in their hands...and sealion was the thing the term "ASB" was originally invented for.
Not that I have anything against ASB, but there is a dedicated forum for a reason

 

[lwhitehead]

Well this setting hings on USSR becoming more stronger after WW2, like developing the A Bomb First.

There is a comic called Storming Paradise in it the Mannhattan Project Scientists blew themselves up during an A Bomb test, I know that USSR A-Bomb info came form spies from that project,

LW

 

[That Damned Fool]

Mexico...no wall there...

Aside from the steel wall of the United States Navy, of course.

Would that be the Rio Grande Squadron?

The submarine fleet and the carrier task forces. The Soviet Navy was never a credible threat to project force against the United States in our hemisphere; they could only have built an invasion force in Mexico with our permission. You could probably tweak the timelines to create realistic scenarios where we would allow that, but I don't know if there's any realistic way to tweak their overinflated coastal defense force into a genuine blue water navy on a par with the United States Navy for most of the period we're talking about here.

 

[destiple]

wHERE is John Mccain ?

 

[lwhitehead]

Well like I stated in my last posting what if USSR developed the A-Bomb First while USA first test killed during the Trinity Test this was due to Russian agent Sabotage the Agent passed on the real Bomb info and replaced it with dummy info. I've bin reading Harry Turtledove's Hot War series, it's given me some ideas. On the lighter side I've bin watching 1970's TV ads on both sides of the Iron Curtain, also I bin doing research on Soviet era culture and music and literature I could really use some serious help on this area as well.


LW

 

[lwhitehead]

Um what make for a good AH setting and one that last over time is the background and setting, The twists in time have to right and beleaveable.

Unlike the Nazis Red Ivan wasn't good at super science most of there stuff was copied off the West, did Red Ivan have a super science?.

LW

 

[Pax]

How about America doesn't buy Alaska in 1867 as the POD. WW1 and WW2 still happen more or less as OTL, however let's say that with the extra supplies/men from Alaska the Soviets are able to beat the British to Denmark (they were only like six hours behind the Brits IOTL IIRC), taking the country for themselves. This and the extra gold reserves of the Soviets lead to a richer USSR that is able to better fund foreign Communist movements. The Communists come to power in Italy, possibly brining the country into the Warsaw Pact ala Czechoslovakia. Let's say the Communists win in Greece too.

This Communist success in Europe makes America go into overdrive stopping expansion in Asia. We go all in fighting in Korea and Vietnam, but a more united Communist bloc, and endless Chinese hordes, are able to see the Americans end up in a slightly worse position than OTL (Seoul is part of the DPRK, but there is still a rump ROK further south). This failure in Vietnam and growing tensions elsewhere see the French leave NATO like IOTL, and confidence in the organization falls.

Let's say that, for some reason, Cuba is able to go Communist and the Soviets still put missiles there. This triggers an alternate Cuban Missile Crisis that escalates into open warfare. The Soviets and their Chinese allies are able to invade the US from bases in Alaska. Let's use some handwavium and say that the extra gold and oil from Alaska allows the Soviets to better fund their military to make it on par or better than the US equivalents.

After several years the Soviets are somehow able to win, probably by using masses of Chinese troops as cannon fodder and requisitioning mounds of supplies from the occupied areas.

I forgot to add that the defeats in Korea and Vietnam lead to an earlier Vietnam syndrome in the US and more isolationism.

 

[Arkenfolm]

How about America doesn't buy Alaska in 1867 as the POD. WW1 and WW2 still happen more or less as OTL, however let's say that with the extra supplies/men from Alaska the Soviets are able to beat the British to Denmark (they were only like six hours behind the Brits IOTL IIRC), taking the country for themselves. This and the extra gold reserves of the Soviets lead to a richer USSR that is able to better fund foreign Communist movements. The Communists come to power in Italy, possibly brining the country into the Warsaw Pact ala Czechoslovakia. Let's say the Communists win in Greece too.

This Communist success in Europe makes America go into overdrive stopping expansion in Asia. We go all in fighting in Korea and Vietnam, but a more united Communist bloc, and endless Chinese hordes, are able to see the Americans end up in a slightly worse position than OTL (Seoul is part of the DPRK, but there is still a rump ROK further south). This failure in Vietnam and growing tensions elsewhere see the French leave NATO like IOTL, and confidence in the organization falls.

Let's say that, for some reason, Cuba is able to go Communist and the Soviets still put missiles there. This triggers an alternate Cuban Missile Crisis that escalates into open warfare. The Soviets and their Chinese allies are able to invade the US from bases in Alaska. Let's use some handwavium and say that the extra gold and oil from Alaska allows the Soviets to better fund their military to make it on par or better than the US equivalents.

After several years the Soviets are somehow able to win, probably by using masses of Chinese troops as cannon fodder and requisitioning mounds of supplies from the occupied areas.

I forgot to add that the defeats in Korea and Vietnam lead to an earlier Vietnam syndrome in the US and more isolationism.

Alaska's gold and oil would not be nearly that profitable for the Soviets. USSR was already rich in gold and oil anyway, and resources which could more easily be shipped to the rest of the country.

And Alaska is a terrible place to invade the US from, since it's over a thousand miles from the rest of the US either by sea or through British Columbia the majority of which has almost no roads. Further, most supplies will have to shipped to Alaska to begin with. Given this is the same United States which outbuilt the rest of the world combined in WWII, it's only a matter of time before the Soviets are completely driven from the Pacific. Soviet ports in Alaska and anything they capture in BC will be rendered unusuable sooner or later.

I'd wager the Canadian military alone could hold off the Soviets and their Chinese allies (no Sino-Soviet split?) for months, if not longer, if they invaded through Alaska.

 

[lwhitehead]

Well here were I need serious help on with this setting to make it workable and belevable blame Wolfstein PS4 games, USSR needs to be stronger then it was in real life. It hings on who builds the A-Bomb First USA or USSR.

USSR had to get more resources and Tech people after WW2, like all of Germany.

LW

 

[riggerrob]

Alternate back story ......
WI nobody develops nuclear weapons?

Their best effort is smouldering nuclear piles barely hot enough to boil water .... and generate electricity.

Lacking nuclear bombs, the USA and the British Empire are forced to invade the Japanese Home Islands the hard way, suffering almost a million casualties.
They don’t bother occupying the smouldering ruins of Japan. Their worn out equipment is melted down for scrap or scuttled in the Pacific Ocean.
The British and French Empires collapse in the aftermath while the USA struggles to pay down massive war debts. The USA cannot afford to build interstate highways and most states are too poor to upgrade existing highways. The Dust Bowl returns with staggering numbers of unemployed.
The USA becomes pacifist again and withdraws to North American ports with only token refuelling bases in Hawaii and Panama.
Russia invades all the islands north of Japan, gaining several ice-free ports.
The Korean War is mainly about various communist armies trying to oust stubborn Japanes divisions that refuse to believe that the war has ended. Similar conflicts wrack many pacific and Asian former colonies with Russia openly supporting local communist factions.

 

[Historyman 14]

Alternate back story ......
WI nobody develops nuclear weapons?

Atomic Weapons are almost inevitable. The concept did not spring solely from a few physicists in Europe after all. You will always get some atomic weapons once technology is advance enough, and they will keep trying till you hit jackpot.

As awful as any invasion of Japan would have been, total collapse of the British and French and the sorry state of America is a little...too much. The Russians didn't have a Navy in Asia and what navy they did had was laughable.

 

[DougM]

The problem you have with almost any USSR invades the USA is that you need to decrease the US while increasing the USSR but to do this all in such a way that the USSR would WANT to invade.

So you have to all but eliminate the US technology edge, The US nuclear weapons, the AirForce, and the Navy. And at the same time you need to make a bigger USSR Navy then it EVER had By huge margins. And all of that just to get the troops landed.

Once in the US you have to eliminate the Army’s ability to fight them off. And then you get the absolutely HUGE problem that has not been addressed. And that is the gigantic number of (mostly) men in the US with hunting rifles in thier homes. Yes these guns are not Assault riffles nor machine guns. But there is an absolutely insane number of them. And Between WW1 And WW2 and Korea pretty much all the men have been trained in combat as most served in some war. So you have opened up the largest Gorilla War in history. Oh and let’s not forget the Automatic weapons that somehow managed to find thier way home from various wars. My local police chief when I was a kid had three of them in his personal collection and out police department “inheritedl about half a dozen from various local citizens and police members and I grew up in a City of about 7000. So I have to guess that a lot of other police ended up with various WW2 and later automatic weapons in back channel ways. So this is going to get very ugly very very fast.

Basically you have to find a POD that swaps the USSR for the USA as far as technology and military goes. And I think buy the time you have done that you have done more changes then are needed to get that Sea dwelling Mammal to live on the beaches of England. And that is not even considering the White Russians.

Oh and I forgot you also have to explain away NATO and the US’s relationship with Canada and Great Britain. Neither of which are feckless enough nor just plan dumb enough to let the USSR get away with eliminating there biggest ally from both WW1 and WW2 and of course the Cold War. It is not like the USSR after taking out the US is going to sit back and play nice with the rest of the world. And that brings up the next point. After eliminating the US in the 50s what is the USSR going to do in the 60s? As much as I hat the term it is basically ASB level to think that the USSR managed to take out the USA and Canada (those to go hand in hand) and as a result did whatever it did to keep England/Great Britain from going ballistic and then it sat back and didn’t take over the whole world, Who would have stopped them? France?


A much more realistic idea would be that some US administration got scared and turned belly up and let them in along the lines of Amerika the mini series and that is pretty rediculus.

Don’t get me wrong you can take out the US. A WW3 with nukes was a very likely thing. And you can have a world we’re the US was changed enough to not be the world power it was but that would take so many changes that it is no longer the US as we know it it is just a country that occupies a large part of North America.

 

[Crusader0926]

Unless the Soviets somehow wipe out the entire US Navy, Coast Guard, Naval Air Force, and any National Guard units near the coast, not to mention getting past Western Europe and Japan, and acquire a large enough navy first, they aren't invading the mainland USA not matter how strong.

Not to mention the fact that even if the USSR develops nukes first, the USA will just nuke them when they touch a major city (or just touches US soil in general).

Unless you somehow go back before WW2 and do some major PODs to get everyone massively weaker, this ain't gonna work.

annnd just realized the guy above me said all that already, damn I'm always late :<

 

[rfmcdonald]

The only plausible invasion plans of the United States, I think, involve someone in the United States inviting them in. That was one of the genius elements in China Mountain Zhang, for instance, with the Chinese invasion of the United States having been facilitated by a direct request for aid from one of the American factions. If you can somehow get a similar request from some major force within the United States, a Soviet invasion is imaginable. Who or what this force could be, mind, is a different story.

 

[riggerrob]

..................
As awful as any invasion of Japan would have been, total collapse of the British and French and the sorry state of America is a little...too much. .........[/QUOTE]

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OTL In the aftermath of WW2, Belgium, Britain, France and Holland lost most of their colonies