1976 Soviets occupied North America

[overoceans]

Jack Brisco wrote:

I remember reading a book titled What to do when the Russians Come

I remember ads for that book in the back pages of National Review. The text opened with "Some of you might be wondering if the Conservative Book Club has started selling kooky books...", which is kind of the equivalent of a salesman telling you "I know this might sound like a pyramid scheme, but it's not."

And via googling, I just saw that it was written by Robert Conquest. I am in no way shape or form a defender of Stalinism, but if I was, I'd probably be in a big hurry to publicize Mr. Conquest's involvement with that particular writing project.

 

[lwhitehead]

Well like I said this setting starts during the last part of WW2, who develops the A Bomb First, USA or USSR?. Also USSR getting the Tech edge in this world then the USA. Now in this setting USA were section super power to developed Atomic power, like the Soviets in are era.


LW

 

[Sam R.]

So the Canadian crisis cabinet invites Soviet peacekeepers in to restore order to the southern wasteland: how do they get there?

 

[Sam R.]

Jack Brisco wrote:

I remember reading a book titled What to do when the Russians Come

I remember ads for that book in the back pages of National Review. The text opened with "Some of you might be wondering if the Conservative Book Club has started selling kooky books...", which is kind of the equivalent of a salesman telling you "I know this might sound like a pyramid scheme, but it's not."

And via googling, I just saw that it was written by Robert Conquest. I am in no way shape or form a defender of Stalinism, but if I was, I'd probably be in a big hurry to publicize Mr. Conquest's involvement with that particular writing project.

Iirc conquest tried to withdraw his chapter from the black book after he read the intro and conclusion. He has a level of professional ethics.

 

[Skinny87]

Well like I said this setting starts during the last part of WW2, who develops the A Bomb First, USA or USSR?. Also USSR getting the Tech edge in this world then the USA. Now in this setting USA were section super power to developed Atomic power, like the Soviets in are era.


LW

But how?

The Soviets took several years after the USA to develop their first atomic bomb, and even then had no arsenal to use in such an invasion.

Look, if you did want to write a story, perhaps the best bet, to avoid becoming disheartened, why not just start writing and 'hand-wave' away why exactly the invasion started.

Because otherwise I fear you'll get bogged down in details you're not sure of, and which you can't explain plausibly

 

[Skinny87]

For example: Resistance by Owen Shears is a really good AH story, but the background makes absolutely no sense - a failed Overlord leads to a Nazi counter-invasion and occupation of the UK all the way up to Scotland and Ireland

 

[Michele]

How about Alaska ? some kind of stupid dispute, The Soviet Union lands in Alaska and gets a beach head there, for an invasion of either Canada or the United States. By the way, in 1950 the Soviet union had exploded one nuke, in august 1949. no missiles yet, and their bomber force was pathetic. So there is no risk of nuclear WWIII in 1950.

There is no risk of a two-sided nuclear war in 1950. If Soviet troops land in the USA, even if that's only in Alaska, the USA do have the capability to go nuclear and cause very, very serious nuclear damage to the USSR.
One of the many reasons why this timeline is pretty unlikely to ever sound convincing.

 

[naraht]

In a war between the United States and the Soviet Union, in what year does the Soviet Union reach 50% likelihood of having a nuclear weapon detonate in the Contiguous 48 states? In 1970, I think the chance is 100%, In 1949, obviously it is 0%

 

[The Red]

They did a REALLY bad mini-series on this exact plot in the mid 80's called Amerika. 14 or 15 hours long (this was in the era of the "TV Event" when you had everything from Rich Man Poor Man to Roots to Shogun to Winds of War).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_(miniseries)

You can always rely on @B_Munro to improve on a scenario:

 

[CalBear]

In a war between the United States and the Soviet Union, in what year does the Soviet Union reach 50% likelihood of having a nuclear weapon detonate in the Contiguous 48 states? In 1970, I think the chance is 100%, In 1949, obviously it is 0%

Somewhere between 1954 and 1956.

The 1954 date requires a decent size gamble, but is doable for a small number of aircraft. The Tu-16 has enough range, in theory, to tank twice (a procedure that was, at the time, REALLY hazardous since it was wingtip-to-wingtip) and reach the northern tier states, including Chicago and Detroit. The major gamble come in with "where" the tanking has to take place. The prestrike/post-strike tanking would need to happen OVER Hudson Bay and would need to use most of the Red Air Force tanker fleet to get 4-5 aircraft into the Toronto/Detroit area. That would be a 50:50 proposition to get a weapon into the "Lower 48", but, IMO, under 15% chance of any of the strike package getting home.

By 1956 the Soviets have the Tu-95 in squadron service. All the range needed for a direct strike over the Pole with pretty much both coasts vulnerable with a tanking. It is even possible that that pre-production Kh-20 (NATO: AS-3 Kangaroo, MACH 2 speed) could be used in very late 1956. That sort of strike has at least a 50:50 chance, with a reasonable chance of at least a portion of the strike package making it to whatever is left of the USSR.

 

[naraht]

Somewhere between 1954 and 1956.

The 1954 date requires a decent size gamble, but is doable for a small number of aircraft. The Tu-16 has enough range, in theory, to tank twice (a procedure that was, at the time, REALLY hazardous since it was wingtip-to-wingtip) and reach the northern tier states, including Chicago and Detroit. The major gamble come in with "where" the tanking has to take place. The prestrike/post-strike tanking would need to happen OVER Hudson Bay and would need to use most of the Red Air Force tanker fleet to get 4-5 aircraft into the Toronto/Detroit area. That would be a 50:50 proposition to get a weapon into the "Lower 48", but, IMO, under 15% chance of any of the strike package getting home.

By 1956 the Soviets have the Tu-95 in squadron service. All the range needed for a direct strike over the Pole with pretty much both coasts vulnerable with a tanking. It is even possible that that pre-production Kh-20 (NATO: AS-3 Kangaroo, MACH 2 speed) could be used in very late 1956. That sort of strike has at least a 50:50 chance, with a reasonable chance of at least a portion of the strike package making it to whatever is left of the USSR.

Fascinating!

Are those percentages for surprise attacks or if things in Europe (for example) have been getting steadily uglier over a range of 2-3 weeks?

 

[CalBear]

Fascinating!

Are those percentages for surprise attacks or if things in Europe (for example) have been getting steadily uglier over a range of 2-3 weeks?

Bolt from the blue surprise. There were, even in the early 1950s available airborne warning aircraft that were meant to reinforce the Pinetree line (which more less straddled the U.S.-Canada border before curving north at the Great Lakes to cover Ontario and Quebec to Newfoundland), the ambitious, but flawed Mid Canada Line, and eventually the DEW Line radar stations.

There were, as might be imagined, a limited number of these aircraft (the best known probably being the EC-121) so the coverage was, at best, spotty in peacetime, In times of crisis the aircraft could be "surged" with routine preventative maintenance postponed and there were, beginning in 1955 a limited number "N class" blimps configured to act as AEW platforms. The weakness of the early AEW assets was the electronic systems were in their toddler stage and tended to give a legre number of false positives while missing actual threats on occasion.

In the case of high tensions all the various radar assets would have addition personnel, extended periods of coverage, and a much increased number of interceptor aircraft on pad alert (a number of these aircraft would be armed with the AIR-2 Genie nuclear tipped missile beginning in 1957). There is still a chance of an aircraft getting through even alerted defenses, but the chances droped markedly.

 

[Draconis]

Somewhere between 1954 and 1956.

The 1954 date requires a decent size gamble, but is doable for a small number of aircraft. The Tu-16 has enough range, in theory, to tank twice (a procedure that was, at the time, REALLY hazardous since it was wingtip-to-wingtip) and reach the northern tier states, including Chicago and Detroit. The major gamble come in with "where" the tanking has to take place. The prestrike/post-strike tanking would need to happen OVER Hudson Bay and would need to use most of the Red Air Force tanker fleet to get 4-5 aircraft into the Toronto/Detroit area. That would be a 50:50 proposition to get a weapon into the "Lower 48", but, IMO, under 15% chance of any of the strike package getting home.

By 1956 the Soviets have the Tu-95 in squadron service. All the range needed for a direct strike over the Pole with pretty much both coasts vulnerable with a tanking. It is even possible that that pre-production Kh-20 (NATO: AS-3 Kangaroo, MACH 2 speed) could be used in very late 1956. That sort of strike has at least a 50:50 chance, with a reasonable chance of at least a portion of the strike package making it to whatever is left of the USSR.

In the time period of the mid-fifties did the Soviet Union possess nuclear armed torpedoes? If they were trying for a surprise attack putting a number of subs off the major port cities on both coasts and than firing a nuclear armed torpedo into the harbours would be very difficult to prevent. Such an attack would be coordinated as well. I don't know how extent the SONUS network was at that point and whether the US Navy would detect Soviet diesel electric submarines arriving at the American seaports.

 

[Michele]

In the time period of the mid-fifties did the Soviet Union possess nuclear armed torpedoes? If they were trying for a surprise attack putting a number of subs off the major port cities on both coasts and than firing a nuclear armed torpedo into the harbours would be very difficult to prevent. Such an attack would be coordinated as well. I don't know how extent the SONUS network was at that point and whether the US Navy would detect Soviet diesel electric submarines arriving at the American seaports.

By 1958-59 they had a low-yield (5 kt) nuclear torpedo warhead for attacking concentrations of enemy warships. But by 1959, they could also use a couple of Golfs to launch half a dozen R-11 missiles, each delivering about 50 kts (with an accuracy level worse than the V-2s'). How close they could get to the US coast while remaining undetected, I don't know. I suspect it would be hard to do.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

The Bourne Identity, 1988

Which (the book) also had this song written about it.

 

[Dave Howery]

In this setting idea it's 1976 Soviets are Occuping North America since the Korea War, a major part of this setting is that USSR and there Warsaw Pact allies are stronger in this alt history setting.


The stats of White Emigres also would be stronger as well, the Soviets have devived North America into sectors, the Pacific NorthWest is British Coloumbia, Alaska, Oregon, and Washington. It has strong White Russian in this sector


So does this setting have Dieselpunk touches as well,

LW

it seems to me that this might be in the wrong forum. It sounds like you're trying to set up a background for story-ish reasons; if so, you might want to put this in the writers' forum. When it comes to AH fiction, you can get away with a lot of unlikely stuff for the purposes of pure fiction. If you're presenting this as a real historical POD, it's.... kinda unlikely.

 

[lwhitehead]

well it's 1976 current year of North America Soviet occupation, I need a Stronger USSR after WW2 one were they have complete control over Germany and the Warsaw Pact is Superior over Nato. Also the Soviets developed PC's then the USA. The USA is like Cuba in our world locked in 1950's,

I need some Royalist White Russians sub rosa rebels fighting the Red Russians, my Main character has too meet first these Royalist Russian rebel types in as the first people fighting the Soviets were he lives.

LW

 

[Skinny87]

well it's 1976 current year of North America Soviet occupation, I need a Stronger USSR after WW2 one were they have complete control over Germany and the Warsaw Pact is Superior over Nato. Also the Soviets developed PC's then the USA. The USA is like Cuba in our world locked in 1950's,

I need some Royalist White Russians sub rosa rebels fighting the Red Russians, my Main character has too meet first these Royalist Russian rebel types in as the first people fighting the Soviets were he lives.

LW

If I might make a gentle suggestion

The world you're trying to build would be difficult, if not impossible, to create without a huge number of Points of Divergence (PoD) because of how fundamentally different it is. Getting Russia to develop personal computers first, for example. And why there would be White Russians still around 60 years after the Russian Revolution.

Instead, I would recommend you simply start writing a story in the Writers Forum, where standards for PoDs and general background are a bit looser, and then try and figure out the history and background at a later time.

 

[lwhitehead]

No world First then stories, that's how I write.

Now onto this world, The Soviet China split didn't happened in this world as well,

LW

 

[Skinny87]

No world First then stories, that's how I write.

Now onto this world, The Soviet China split didn't happened in this world as well,

LW

Okay, if you're determined to develop the world first (which is understandable but quite difficult in your case) then why not use your next post to bullet-point, each one just being a few words, the key events and issues with the story-world. Because you're still introducing new things, like the absence of a Sino-Soviet split.

Once you've listed them, you can start trying to think of plausible reasons why they might have occurred, or at least less implausible.