One major difference would be that culturaly speaking America would not be so dominant and that German (and probably French) culture will be far more prominant now. In the Netherlands (and I assume the same is true for many non-German speaking countries) it is extremely rare for a German movie to be in the cinema, a German television series on Dutch tv and there aren't even many people who read German books or listen to German music. Most populair culture is American or (slightly less) British. This will probably be very different with far more German and French influences.
1960s in a timeline without world wars.
- Thread starter lounge60
- Start date
Well while there would undoubtedly be at least *some* differences from OTL for sure(i.e. no Nazis for one), it may not necessarily make the world *totally* unrecognizable.
In terms of music, I find M79's suggestion in particular to be rather fascinating; swing, gospel and jazz mixing together, as an alternative, and possibly one that ends up being a worthy challenger, to either of the two other genres above sounds like it'd be fun to write about. A blend of *hip-hop and *salsa would be interesting as well. However, though, I'd also like to point out, too, that the roots for both *Jazz and *Rock and Roll were already pretty much in place, and just needed some time to develop and eventually emerge. There could very well be some interesting divergence from OTL, that is true, I think; but they'd still be out there.
And for the matter of social issues, America may not be necessarily be more conservative than OTL, either. In fact, without either of the Red Scares it could very well actually be a bit leftier than OTL; both of these were significant contributors to the resurgences of more hardcore conservatism in their respective eras and without them, a lot of the fuel for those fires becomes unavailable. I would speculate that, realistically speaking, the Civil Rights Act, or it's equivalent, would probably be signed no later than 1970 at the very worst, and possibly by the late '40s, early '50s at the earliest. Feminism will probably also do just fine and without the "Reagan Revolution" and the national rise of the Religious Right(who'd probably be largely restricted to the South), is liable to make even more progress than in our world.
Public apathy about racism may perhaps be just a little worse than in OTL for a while, without the Nazis and all that, but that's far from inevitable and when the true tragedies of Jim Crow start being aired, it's definitely going to take a good hit either way(though then again, the hard right may be even more eager to embrace bigotry than they were IOTL), and more people are going to want action taken.
All in all, the equivalent of the Sixties era, whenever it occurs, might not quite produce quite so many uber-radical movements and such, but large-scale social change is definitely inevitable at some point(barring, perhaps, in a totalitarian dictatorship, like an equivalent of North Korea if there ends up being one).
Also, on the geopolitical front, Russia may have a somewhat better chance of surviving the Marxist uprisings, but even then, sadly, a collapse might still occur. Their best bet is for Kolchak or someone like him to step up when the shit *does* hit the fan(and it will in some fashion, at this point). The Tsar *might* not do something incredibly stupid, but I wouldn't bet on that too much, sadly. He will probably end up in Paris or London after the rubble's cleared, Leninists or no.
The Ottoman Empire is almost irrevocably doomed at this point and will take a miracle to save. And there's a possibility the Middle East might not be entirely recognizable, either(whether or not Israel still exists is debatable).
Germany, if they don't fuck anything up real bad, or suffer a *Depression, probably will remain a Great Power, perhaps doubly so if they create a union with Austria-Hungary at some point.
Japan may enter a militaristic phase for a while but it probably won't turn into OTL's horrorfest.
China's Empire is gone but they may still yet become a Great Power.
In terms of music, I find M79's suggestion in particular to be rather fascinating; swing, gospel and jazz mixing together, as an alternative, and possibly one that ends up being a worthy challenger, to either of the two other genres above sounds like it'd be fun to write about. A blend of *hip-hop and *salsa would be interesting as well. However, though, I'd also like to point out, too, that the roots for both *Jazz and *Rock and Roll were already pretty much in place, and just needed some time to develop and eventually emerge. There could very well be some interesting divergence from OTL, that is true, I think; but they'd still be out there.
And for the matter of social issues, America may not be necessarily be more conservative than OTL, either. In fact, without either of the Red Scares it could very well actually be a bit leftier than OTL; both of these were significant contributors to the resurgences of more hardcore conservatism in their respective eras and without them, a lot of the fuel for those fires becomes unavailable. I would speculate that, realistically speaking, the Civil Rights Act, or it's equivalent, would probably be signed no later than 1970 at the very worst, and possibly by the late '40s, early '50s at the earliest. Feminism will probably also do just fine and without the "Reagan Revolution" and the national rise of the Religious Right(who'd probably be largely restricted to the South), is liable to make even more progress than in our world.
Public apathy about racism may perhaps be just a little worse than in OTL for a while, without the Nazis and all that, but that's far from inevitable and when the true tragedies of Jim Crow start being aired, it's definitely going to take a good hit either way(though then again, the hard right may be even more eager to embrace bigotry than they were IOTL), and more people are going to want action taken.
All in all, the equivalent of the Sixties era, whenever it occurs, might not quite produce quite so many uber-radical movements and such, but large-scale social change is definitely inevitable at some point(barring, perhaps, in a totalitarian dictatorship, like an equivalent of North Korea if there ends up being one).
Also, on the geopolitical front, Russia may have a somewhat better chance of surviving the Marxist uprisings, but even then, sadly, a collapse might still occur. Their best bet is for Kolchak or someone like him to step up when the shit *does* hit the fan(and it will in some fashion, at this point). The Tsar *might* not do something incredibly stupid, but I wouldn't bet on that too much, sadly. He will probably end up in Paris or London after the rubble's cleared, Leninists or no.
The Ottoman Empire is almost irrevocably doomed at this point and will take a miracle to save. And there's a possibility the Middle East might not be entirely recognizable, either(whether or not Israel still exists is debatable).
Germany, if they don't fuck anything up real bad, or suffer a *Depression, probably will remain a Great Power, perhaps doubly so if they create a union with Austria-Hungary at some point.
Japan may enter a militaristic phase for a while but it probably won't turn into OTL's horrorfest.
China's Empire is gone but they may still yet become a Great Power.
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universal human rights are part of the left portfolio. the right on the other hand wants to keep things how they are now, or turn the clock backwards.
social democracy wants the revolution too, but they'd rather have it happen in small salami slices, one piece at a time, not in one big ugly orgy of violence.
One thing to remember is that the Depression and the second world war created a straight 10 or 15 year delay in social progress. Without them, the swing era would have passed into the television era around 1939.
You had two entertainment revolutions in the century. As I mentioned earlier, the first happened when movies with sound drove out silent pictures and Vaudeville. The second happened in the mid fifties. In 1949 there were about 125 television stations in the US in some 60 markets. No new stations were licensed from 1950 through 1952 so the FCC could allocate channels. Then, starting in 1953, the VHF TV spectrum was suddenly filled nationwide. The golden age of radio came to a sudden end. In 1954, audio recording took a leap forward in terms of quality and flexibility, with the 33 & 45 rpm vinyl records. By 1958, radio stations orphaned away the old 78's because the quality of vinyl was so much better. These developments dictated the evolution of popular music and soon, social change.
By the sixties, suburban growth was making the cutting edge of American life off limits to African-Americans and television was making the issue painfully obvious on a daily basis. So, Martin Luther King, Jr. gives his Dream Speech, and the civil rights acts and voting rights act follow.
The factors that drove social change would happen sooner in a time line without the wars. My take is that the forties would be the new fifties and the changes of the OTL sixties get spread over two decades. Of course, some of the progress depends on electronics.
You had two entertainment revolutions in the century. As I mentioned earlier, the first happened when movies with sound drove out silent pictures and Vaudeville. The second happened in the mid fifties. In 1949 there were about 125 television stations in the US in some 60 markets. No new stations were licensed from 1950 through 1952 so the FCC could allocate channels. Then, starting in 1953, the VHF TV spectrum was suddenly filled nationwide. The golden age of radio came to a sudden end. In 1954, audio recording took a leap forward in terms of quality and flexibility, with the 33 & 45 rpm vinyl records. By 1958, radio stations orphaned away the old 78's because the quality of vinyl was so much better. These developments dictated the evolution of popular music and soon, social change.
By the sixties, suburban growth was making the cutting edge of American life off limits to African-Americans and television was making the issue painfully obvious on a daily basis. So, Martin Luther King, Jr. gives his Dream Speech, and the civil rights acts and voting rights act follow.
The factors that drove social change would happen sooner in a time line without the wars. My take is that the forties would be the new fifties and the changes of the OTL sixties get spread over two decades. Of course, some of the progress depends on electronics.
Presumably the British Liberal Party will continue as one of the two main parties in Britain. This is a very good development as its demise was one of the great tragedies of the 20th century imo.
and no ww1 means also no spanish flu, so another 100-150M surviving
the roots of art deco are pre ww1, but dadaism & surrealism will be gone indeed. and music, totally unpredictable.
the roots of art deco are pre ww1, but dadaism & surrealism will be gone indeed. and music, totally unpredictable.
No World Wars
Counter to what has been suggested, I think aviation will be significantly less developed (where do you think all of those Air Mail pilots in the 1920s came from)?
With no trigger from a Russia Revolution, I think we'll see a bigger socialist presence in US, German and British labor unions (and eventually, politics). Eugene Debs may even get elected.
Culturally, I think America will remain more "American" - especially since there will be no problem keeping those boys on the farm (when they've never even seen Par-ree). Think more "By the Light of the Silvery Moon" and likely no "Porgy and Bess". Certainly no Jitterbugs.
There might have been a Bing Crosby, but I can't see a Sinatra in this world.
I honestly think that the big winners will be Britain and Germany - with no wars to devastate their economies. Middle East oil will be extracted by French, British and Italian firms.
The Ottoman Empire might have survived into the 1920s, but no for much longer.
Counter to what has been suggested, I think aviation will be significantly less developed (where do you think all of those Air Mail pilots in the 1920s came from)?
With no trigger from a Russia Revolution, I think we'll see a bigger socialist presence in US, German and British labor unions (and eventually, politics). Eugene Debs may even get elected.
Culturally, I think America will remain more "American" - especially since there will be no problem keeping those boys on the farm (when they've never even seen Par-ree). Think more "By the Light of the Silvery Moon" and likely no "Porgy and Bess". Certainly no Jitterbugs.
There might have been a Bing Crosby, but I can't see a Sinatra in this world.
I honestly think that the big winners will be Britain and Germany - with no wars to devastate their economies. Middle East oil will be extracted by French, British and Italian firms.
The Ottoman Empire might have survived into the 1920s, but no for much longer.
A good point - German used to be the common scientific language as welll as a major musical language
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
No Germans?
I don't vehemently disagree with a possible Ottoman collapse, but I think if it did it would not splinter as per OTL. But what WOULD happen is difficult to say, could be 1) a military republic with the majority of Ottoman territory, or 2) a major Russian move especially into Armenia, or 3) maybe an uber Syria
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
I believe without the world wars the 20th century would look much like the 19th century geopolitically. Instead of one or two superpowers dominating the world it'll be a series of Great Powers. That list by 1960:
1) Great Britain(primarily because of it's Empire and navy)
2) USA(Industry)
3) Germany(again Industry and Military)
4) France(Empire)
5) Russia(if it can modernize and industrialize)
6) Italy(empire)
7)Japan(empire and Industry(for its size))
I have my doubts of China. Europe is still gonna be messing with China, especially since China'll be fractured and will be an easy target.
1) Great Britain(primarily because of it's Empire and navy)
2) USA(Industry)
3) Germany(again Industry and Military)
4) France(Empire)
5) Russia(if it can modernize and industrialize)
6) Italy(empire)
7)Japan(empire and Industry(for its size))
I have my doubts of China. Europe is still gonna be messing with China, especially since China'll be fractured and will be an easy target.
Aviation will be different, not better or worse. Why? As has been pointed out elsewhere, the focussing of war is at least partially offset by the destruction, so without the war less government money goes in, but more private money does, and the aims are different, less about speed and manoeuvrability, more about size and range.
Art Deco and Dadaism had their roots before WWI, Surrealism came in the 20's, so it may be different. Keep in mind the OTL artists are still there. American music, Jazz, Ragtime, Blues, Folk will all be there, as the factors that grew them will not change. American art would not be heavily changed in the twenties. Country-Western might evolve differently, but this form found very little following outside the United States.
A different Germany would be significant. We can say, suppose a German inventor who otherwise died in the war beats Edison to sound movies (OTL 1927). We can imagine a very different European involvement in entertainment and pop culture. America's dominated in OTL in part because it was not blown apart in two wars.
No,i'm curious to understand as different can be,in this timeline our 1960s from 1960s ATL.
Music is only one of these possible changes.
Is probable that in ATL United States rock and roll not emerges,because without WW-II society is more conservative in taste.
Other hand,who could predict rock and roll in OTL very conservative America of early 50s?
Jazz is anyway the dominant form of popular music in United States also without WW-I and WW-II; maybe here we not have Swing and Jitterbug because swing big bands were a phenomenon caused by great depression (that without WW-I not happen or is less severe),but other forms of jazz are developed (vocal quartet? crooners? small jazz groups as in 50s OTL?).
I think that in 1950s ATL the musical scene is not very different from early 1950s OTL,and not forget latin music; rumba,mambo,cha cha,jazz samba (like OTL Bossa Nova) can be very popular in mid century ATL.
Without rock and roll is possible that in 1960s ATL music is more jazz oriented.
Beatles,if there are,could be a some type of jazz vocal quartet.
Is also interesting understand as can be the British music scene without WW-I and WW-II.
Consider the origins of rock and roll. By 1950, big bands became unaffordable as decent-paying factory jobs abounded to catch up with a war-starved demand for consumer goods. Emphasis went to smaller musical groups, and that often meant folk music and some rhythm-and-blues, neither of which had much international following. Then, in 1955, Chuck Berry composed, sang and played “Maybelline” a song that featured the guitar, a “cowboy” instrument, in rhythm-and-blues music. Rock-and-roll caught on, and found a vogue period in the late fifties. Unfortunately, it came under fire by 1959 as being “evil,” or “the work of Satan.” Young people liked it, but older, conservative Americans did not. By 1960, Elvis Presley was in the army, Chuck Berry was in prison and Buddy Holly had died in a plane crash. But across the ocean, the British couldn’t get enough rock and roll. The overall success of rock and roll as a music form of its own was very much rooted to its overwhelming appeal to the British audience.
In an ATL without wars, the cultural factors that made this music form so appealing to the British will still be there. Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Paul McCartney and John Lennon will not be born as we know them. But one time, a rhythm-and-blues performer will eventually do what Chuck Berry did in St. Louis: pick up a guitar. And the audience will like it. It is possible to have the emergence of rock-and-roll in a form surprisingly similar to that of OTL – with different players.
In an ATL without wars, the cultural factors that made this music form so appealing to the British will still be there. Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Paul McCartney and John Lennon will not be born as we know them. But one time, a rhythm-and-blues performer will eventually do what Chuck Berry did in St. Louis: pick up a guitar. And the audience will like it. It is possible to have the emergence of rock-and-roll in a form surprisingly similar to that of OTL – with different players.
TFSmith121
Banned
All very interesting, Mark: one disagreement, however:
This one - I'd expect the benefits of geosynchronous earth oribits for communications satellites would be readily apparent, especially in a world where telecommunications was moving along a more commercial than military path from the 'teens onward. The concept goes back (arguably) to The Brick Moon, after all.
GEO is technically challenging, but similar advantages are gained from LEO, MEO, and HEO, albeit not to the same scale. From the military side, a multi-polar world suggests obvious paths in overflight recconaissance; presumably initially by high altitude aircraft, but satellites are an obvious evolution.
What this means in a world using vacumn tube-based electronics is interesting; rather than automated satellites, man-tended or crewed satellites may be a necessity, which could actually drive astronautics.
Who the players would be would be interesting, but obviously, any nation state with global interests and/or neighbors that could close their airspace to conventional aircraft would be high on the list.
Best,
This one - I'd expect the benefits of geosynchronous earth oribits for communications satellites would be readily apparent, especially in a world where telecommunications was moving along a more commercial than military path from the 'teens onward. The concept goes back (arguably) to The Brick Moon, after all.
GEO is technically challenging, but similar advantages are gained from LEO, MEO, and HEO, albeit not to the same scale. From the military side, a multi-polar world suggests obvious paths in overflight recconaissance; presumably initially by high altitude aircraft, but satellites are an obvious evolution.
What this means in a world using vacumn tube-based electronics is interesting; rather than automated satellites, man-tended or crewed satellites may be a necessity, which could actually drive astronautics.
Who the players would be would be interesting, but obviously, any nation state with global interests and/or neighbors that could close their airspace to conventional aircraft would be high on the list.
Best,
I think that in this timeline the first satellite in orbit is German.
However depends when.
This thread is about the 1960s ATL,and maybe in this timeline the first satellite is send in orbit by 1970s or 1980s.
Another important matter is the atomic bomb.
Einstein is in Germany,Fermi in Italy,Oppenheimer in USA.
Without world wars some country would have the bomb within the 60s,or the atomic development would have been civil nuclear?