1960s in a central Powers victory world.
- Thread starter maverick
- Start date
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
The Sultanate hung together just fine, thank you. By 1914 there was nothing left but overwhelmingly Muslim territory, and territorial loss was minimal until the end of 1917.
As long as the war ends by the middle of 1917 the Ottomans will be just fine. After that it will be more difficult to repair the damage, but if they'r on the winning side their prestige will increase dramatically and I don't see how anyone is going to stop them - with a million men in uniform, there shouldn't be any question of controlling 7 million (mostly loyal) Arabs.
As long as the war ends by the middle of 1917 the Ottomans will be just fine. After that it will be more difficult to repair the damage, but if they'r on the winning side their prestige will increase dramatically and I don't see how anyone is going to stop them - with a million men in uniform, there shouldn't be any question of controlling 7 million (mostly loyal) Arabs.
The Sandman
Banned
How long until the thieves fall out, though? Aside from the increase in A-H's internal tensions (the Hungarians would not be happy about incorporating more Slavs into the Empire), I expect that the Ottomans and Bulgarians have some issues with each other; the Transcaucasus will be a major headache, the Germans and Austrians are likely to quarrel over the Ukraine, and the Allies will almost certainly be preparing for Round Two.
And if the Italians honor their alliance and join the Central Powers, the situation gets even worse.
And if the Italians honor their alliance and join the Central Powers, the situation gets even worse.
. Ottoman Turkey it is.Max Sinister
Banned
Puppet is too strong... they were well aware of their big neighbor in the south and didn't do anything to anger him.
I think maybe some people are overestimating the changes that would have come about if there had been a Central Powers Victory... War tends to simply change the pace of advancement (whether slowing it or increasing it's speed)... I suspect that little would really be different up until the 1940s, when perhaps France and Britain would have become agressive (and frankly, there would be more reason for them to be than in Germany rl- there is much evidence that the CP's planned a much harsher victory treaty than Versailles... indeed, the Kaiser had relied so much on the prospect of billions in reparations that the economy collapsed as soon as the War ended) and, if the right policies were made, they could be more formidable than the Nazis as a military force.... However, I don't think we should assume that these Anglo- French governments would be fascist and/or nazi- there simply isn't the capacity for such systems in either country, in my opinion.
Certainly in France, there is little exclusive racial heritage (and it's only slightly less of this case in the Uk) and, after all, both have been ruled by 'moderate' conservatives or Socialists for more than a century.
Certainly in France, there is little exclusive racial heritage (and it's only slightly less of this case in the Uk) and, after all, both have been ruled by 'moderate' conservatives or Socialists for more than a century.
Are you trolling?
My knowledge of French history, limited as it is, doesn't indicate that antisemitism was a significant force in WWI era France. So you'd better explain yourself when you make comments like that, especially considering you're making a long line of comments and sarcastic remarks about bigotry and racism through this entire thread.
No, I am not.
I am merely talking Gobineau and others. Yes prior to WWI anti-semitismus was not that significant, (though Dreyfus *cough* *cough*), but it was even less signiicant in Germany.
What sracastic remarks? That I did not want to go to debate the Croatians? Yes I did not want to debate them, I do not think they are any worse than any other people in that aspect. Or that I spoke about jewish terrorsits? What else were Haguna and Irgun?
If you somehow think I have been racist and bigoted kick me or ban me, but I have not said anything that I feel I should apologize for.
Finland in CP Victory world
The following info is from a "what if" book published in Finland in 2005 (historians looking into different AH scenarios etc., to my knowledge the first of it's kind in Finland; there has also been a follow-up book with more scenarios, have them both).
In a Central Powers victory world there would be an independent Finland, but it might be a kingdom instead of a republic. This kingdom of Finland might have different borders, maybe something like in the OTL Tartu peace treaty of 1920. If the victorious Germany has backed Finland up in post-war border "negotiations", Finland might have even larger areas in Eastern Karelia (something like in the "Greater Finland" aspirations of certain circles during WW2).
The first king of Finland could be prince Friedrich Karl of Hessen.
The parliament/senate of Finland would have a monarchist majority consisting of the Swedish Party, independence activists and, above all, the conservative "Old Finnish" Party (vanhasuomalaiset), which will in time become the National Coalition Party (Kansallinen Kokoomus). Also the majority of the "Young Finnish" Party (nuorsuomalaiset) or so called 'Svinhufvudians' would be part of this conservative block.
The political opposition might consist of 'republicans': Agrarian League (Maalaisliitto), which will in time become the Centre Party (Keskustapuolue); the leftist side of the "Young Finnish" Party, so called 'ståhlbergians' or 'holstians'; and, finally, the Social Democratic Party (which might have a hard time in the post-war conservative/royalist climate).
This Kingdom of Finland would be in a political, economical and possibly also in a military alliance with Germany.
The society would be more conservative and "rightist" than in OTL. The left would be a politically controlled force, not unlike in the OTL Eastern European dictatorships in the 1930's. The development of the (social-democratic) welfare state would be postponed greatly. Eastern Europe would be "finlandizied" towards Germany; a so called "Berlin card" would be often played in the poker table of national politics. German "contacts" (regarding politics) would be greatly appreciated.
Germany might have crushed Bolshevism in its cradle in St. Petersburg (Lenin, Stalin, all the others put against a wall and shot by German forces?). Depends WHEN Germany would win the war. Russia might have a conservative, "German-minded", White-Russian government, monarchy/republic, whatever... Maybe St. Petersburg would still be Russia's capital?
Finland's capital Helsinki might have had an extensive facelift to transform it into a capital suitable for a kingdom (I'm thinking of Eliel Saarinen's Munkkiniemi-Haaga plan of 1915 or something like that - an extensive Jugend-style city centre with boulevards several kilometers long, and so on... This is a personal favourite of mine ;-)).
The following info is from a "what if" book published in Finland in 2005 (historians looking into different AH scenarios etc., to my knowledge the first of it's kind in Finland; there has also been a follow-up book with more scenarios, have them both).
In a Central Powers victory world there would be an independent Finland, but it might be a kingdom instead of a republic. This kingdom of Finland might have different borders, maybe something like in the OTL Tartu peace treaty of 1920. If the victorious Germany has backed Finland up in post-war border "negotiations", Finland might have even larger areas in Eastern Karelia (something like in the "Greater Finland" aspirations of certain circles during WW2).
The first king of Finland could be prince Friedrich Karl of Hessen.
The parliament/senate of Finland would have a monarchist majority consisting of the Swedish Party, independence activists and, above all, the conservative "Old Finnish" Party (vanhasuomalaiset), which will in time become the National Coalition Party (Kansallinen Kokoomus). Also the majority of the "Young Finnish" Party (nuorsuomalaiset) or so called 'Svinhufvudians' would be part of this conservative block.
The political opposition might consist of 'republicans': Agrarian League (Maalaisliitto), which will in time become the Centre Party (Keskustapuolue); the leftist side of the "Young Finnish" Party, so called 'ståhlbergians' or 'holstians'; and, finally, the Social Democratic Party (which might have a hard time in the post-war conservative/royalist climate).
This Kingdom of Finland would be in a political, economical and possibly also in a military alliance with Germany.
The society would be more conservative and "rightist" than in OTL. The left would be a politically controlled force, not unlike in the OTL Eastern European dictatorships in the 1930's. The development of the (social-democratic) welfare state would be postponed greatly. Eastern Europe would be "finlandizied" towards Germany; a so called "Berlin card" would be often played in the poker table of national politics. German "contacts" (regarding politics) would be greatly appreciated.
Germany might have crushed Bolshevism in its cradle in St. Petersburg (Lenin, Stalin, all the others put against a wall and shot by German forces?). Depends WHEN Germany would win the war. Russia might have a conservative, "German-minded", White-Russian government, monarchy/republic, whatever... Maybe St. Petersburg would still be Russia's capital?
Finland's capital Helsinki might have had an extensive facelift to transform it into a capital suitable for a kingdom (I'm thinking of Eliel Saarinen's Munkkiniemi-Haaga plan of 1915 or something like that - an extensive Jugend-style city centre with boulevards several kilometers long, and so on... This is a personal favourite of mine ;-)).
The Ottomans will stay around as long as Germany doesn't sell them up the river to the Allies as a peace condition...
About who? You need to be pretty obvious if you're talking about a scenario where somehow the people of Europe are happy to have Jewish people kicked out and think of them as terrorists, or where people expect to hear that as a standard AH.
I think that the defeated allied nations would have been sent down the same course as the Germans did in OTL. After that the world might have eventually come out almost like it did in our timeline. Except with an isolationist America depending on the POD. And with Facist Britian AND France. The Russians would have turned communist and maybe if that happened early enough, gobbled up some eastern CP territories while the CP were busy fighting the new allies. But the good ole Russkies probally only jumped in after an Allied victory was assured. Though not as powerful as in OTL there might have been a Soviet dominated East Europe but probally much smaller. Maybe there might even be a similar final soluton for germans but I find this very unlikely. But wo knows. What yall think
David S Poepoe
Banned
I guess I would be the first one to suggest that - contrary to others - the Austro-Hungarian Empire would continue to exist. Don't see any reason it would collapse
'In the spring of 1912, moreover, the governmental institutions of the monarchy were in fact functioning, in not in perfect function, nonetheless functioning more effectively than critics then or later have usually conceded.'
-Austria-Hungary and the Origins of the First World War by Samuel Williamson jr.
'In the spring of 1912, moreover, the governmental institutions of the monarchy were in fact functioning, in not in perfect function, nonetheless functioning more effectively than critics then or later have usually conceded.'
-Austria-Hungary and the Origins of the First World War by Samuel Williamson jr.
Still, it's going to be...interesting to see what happens as Western ideas start to penetrate a little more thoroughly into the Ottoman intelligensia. It might also be possible that a surviving, moderinizing Ottoman state could become the target of a fundamentalist revival, like how the Pahlavis of Iran modernized quite well during the Cold War, only to get caught with their pants down by the mullahs.
As for the wider world, I have a feeling that Russia (monarchy, republic, Soviet, fascist) is probably screwed. While I have argued before that a Bolshevik state might be able to survive its first shaky years in a Central Powers victory TL, they'd still have a strong Germany to the west to contend with, one that would probably realize in short order that the Soviet Union needs to be dealt with at some point. Certainly, with events in Eastern Europe being as shaky as ever, it wouldn't be that hard to arrange for a set of circumstances leading to war, one in which Germany is blessed with sane leadership and a (more or less) united continent behind them. The other possible governments I mentioned would probably fare even worse without the Soviet genius for mass mobilization, though they probably would not be quite as bad for Russia as the Soviets (maybe). Overall, by 1968 I'd expect Russia to be in a similar place to Russia today: a great resource bank for Europe, but perpetually messed up, not that democratic, and taking a low-key line in foreign affairs.
Like David, I don't see the Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsing in CP Victory scenario.
I see it federalizing, and forming more equalized autonomy in the provinces, though. Something akin to the US' system, actually,, with each state having autonomy but bound towards a central government with a two-chambered federal legislature.
I see it federalizing, and forming more equalized autonomy in the provinces, though. Something akin to the US' system, actually,, with each state having autonomy but bound towards a central government with a two-chambered federal legislature.