1955 Nazi Invasion of Britain

Kongzilla

Banned
I've been reading CalBears Anglo/American-Nazi war TL and it got me thinking. Why would hitler become a Turtle. Wouldn't he have gone on the offensive and tried to take Britain.

So I was just wondering what would happen and how it could happen potentially. I was just fascinated by the image of valiant homeguard fighting with Double barrel shotguns against Fallschirmjager armed with STG44s.

Also what effect would this have, would the British desperately rush the EM-2 into service. Would they issue a decree that anyone over the age of 17 in the colonies can be conscripted to fight for the Homeland. What kind of tanks would the Germans be using in the 50's. How would SAM's develop and would the Germans invest in a heavy bombing fleet.

Could the countries surrounding Germany be made loyal. With a daily dose of Propaganda and heavy incentives.

So it was just a thought I had. I dunno what do you think.
 

dropbearabroad

From what I remember of CalBear's (great) timeline, by 1955 Britain was armed to the teeth and the UK/US alliance ruled the waves even more comprehensively than in OTL. So a 1955 invasion attempt would be even less likely to succeed than in 1940, which of course is saying something. Even if some 1955 uberNazis got across the Channel then they wouldn't be facing farmers with shotguns but Centurion tanks and masses of artillery.

I think your other questions were answered by Calbear, and discussed in great detail by many others, in his timeline.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
I didn't mean using exactly Calbears timeline but more so just if that happened to be like it with a generic Nazi ruled Europe.

I didn't think the British could effectively pay for themselves after ww2. Could the Nazi's institue their own extensive ship building program, coupled with Siberian resources and pretty much everything else in Europe could they build ships faster than even USA or the British.
 
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RPW@Cy

Kongzilla said:
I didn't mean using exactly Calbears timeline but more so just if that happened to be like it with a generic Nazi ruled Europe.

I didn't think the British could effectively pay for themselves after ww2. Could the Nazi's institue their own extensive ship building program, coupled with Siberian resources and pretty much everything else in Europe could they build ships faster than even USA or the British.
Click to expand...

Two words - Tube Alloys.
Two more - Jewish Physics.
 

dropbearabroad

Well, if you are asking a general "what if" about yet another alternate 1955 then I think you need to sort out a few details first about your hypothetical world. Is the USSR defeated and if so, in a general sense at least, when and how did that happen? Is Japan still around? What sort of rule are your Nazis exerting in their conquered territories? Did the Allies in this new timeline invade Italy? We have the events of OTL, we have the events of CalBear's detailed TL, and those provide the framework to discuss your questions about force levels, TOEs etc but at the moment there is not enough information to frame an answer about what might happen in yet another version of 1955. For example, whether the UK is a strong force or not will depend on many other factors, so those would shape any possible reply to your Fallschirmjager v farmers suggestion.

I'm not saying that you've got to produce an epic timeline to prompt conversation, but some detail as to what shape this version of 1955 is in is necessary to generate a meaningful reply. Otherwise there are just too many "it depends" caveats.

But in a general case, I think that in any version of 1955 in which the UK is still at war with Nazi Germany, the British are going to have a standing army large enough to squash any invasion attempt able to somehow get past the RN and RAF. Tanks + artillery vs paratroopers is a very one-sided proposition.
 

dropbearabroad

Sorry Andre27, I've tried to find the link using the Search tool but had no luck. I think it was titled "Anglo-Nazi War" but maybe someone more adept at using the search tool can help?
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Yes the USSR is defeated with the use of Handwavium and is kept that way because they are weak enough the Germans will absolutely annhilate them with bombings and gas or something.

I should of added that in the OP. There is Peace in 1943 so no Invasion of Italy. The territories are treated as Vichy like puppet states if they're not entirely annexed. So Czechia and Poland are completely annexed. The territories I'm not sure how well they would be treated. USSR and all the puppet states have to give tribute to Germany.

I think Germanic citizens will have very good lifestyles and everyone else is sort of secondary citizens but they can become Germanic if they join the Heer or another uniformed service. You serve 2 years in the Heer, 5 years in a Labour Battalion and so on to gain your Germanic citizenship.

I'm not sure how strong they would be. Would the American public be getting sick of the war. And would stop supplying Britain with supplies until they paid their debt. I'm not exactly sure. Could the British be a little weak because Iran, Iraq, Egypt and maybe even India don't want to be subservient to a nation that might not even be able to protect itself.
 

Derek Jackson

Reagan died 1981, Daddy Bush impeached 1987?

WI Reagan had died as a result of the murder attempt. I think Bush senior would have stayed President.

He would have won by a smaller margin than in otl in84. I also think Republcians would have done a little worse in Senate elections in 02 and 04

If Iran Contra had come out before the 06 elections I think Republicans would have done VERY badly

I also suspect that George's fingers would be more clearly on the deed than Reagan's were in otl.

How big a political impact does this have
 
Jim Smitty

Jim Smitty

Its been some time since I read Calbear's masterpiece AANW. But here is my take, after knocking the Soviets out in 43, it became an air-naval war in which each side was able to hold its own. Neither side was willing to launch an attack on the other because they couldn't get the 3 to 1 edge in troops on the first day.

During the 47 to I believe 53 the Nazis to manage to build a small navy. I believe 3 carriers like the Graf Zepplin and those are straight though carriers, with supporting destroyers and possibly some cruisers and battleships as well. Against this was the 30+ carriers in the USN, plus throw in the carriers of the RN, RAN, RCN, and possibly the new Indian State that was formed at some point ITL in AANW. Then add on all the supporting battleships, cruisers, destoryers, and everything else? The German navy was bottle up in the Baltic till Hilter snapped and ordered his fleet out to attack. In this battle they got their clocks cleaned by the allied fleet. I think only a few destroyers made it back to Norway.

In the air things were most likely again in the allies favor. The USAF most likely had two or three air forces in Britian alone, with others in North Africa, plus throw in the massive air forces of the other allies, they would have the edge.

But for the hell of it lets just stay instead of building those massive bombers that the AANW Nazis used in their failed attack on America and puts those resources into invasion of Britain. During the 47-53 break each side still fought, but these were limited to military targets and didn't happen all that offen. But I would bet overflights still happen on a somewhat normal basis. As soon as it became clear the Nazis were going to try launch an invasion, Britain with US support launches a full nuclear strike against the build up points in France and as well as other targets in Germany.

This is just like Sealion of 1940.
 

King Augeas

Jim Smitty said:
During the 47 to I believe 53 the Nazis to manage to build a small navy. I believe 3 carriers like the Graf Zepplin and those are straight though carriers, with supporting destroyers and possibly some cruisers and battleships as well. Against this was the 30+ carriers in the USN, plus throw in the carriers of the RN, RAN, RCN, and possibly the new Indian State that was formed at some point ITL in AANW. Then add on all the supporting battleships, cruisers, destoryers, and everything else? The German navy was bottle up in the Baltic till Hilter snapped and ordered his fleet out to attack. In this battle they got their clocks cleaned by the allied fleet. I think only a few destroyers made it back to Norway.
Click to expand...

Sending the fleet out to almost certain death was a kinda crazy move, although it's reasonable enough if we assume that a 1953 Hitler was kinda crazy too. :) But when I read AAN the alternative of an attempted surprise invasion of the UK did strike me. I mean, it won't work either, but it sounds more promising that the suicide fleet... :confused:
 
JMT

JMT

Derek Jackson said:
WI Reagan had died as a result of the murder attempt. I think Bush senior would have stayed President.

He would have won by a smaller margin than in otl in84. I also think Republcians would have done a little worse in Senate elections in 02 and 04

If Iran Contra had come out before the 06 elections I think Republicans would have done VERY badly

I also suspect that George's fingers would be more clearly on the deed than Reagan's were in otl.

How big a political impact does this have
Click to expand...


...WHAT? ...
 

xxmagex

Hmmm, I think any United Kingdom in a 1955 world where Nazi Germany conquered Europe would be preparing like crazy for a possible invasion. It's doable for the Germans to invade, but my money would be on the Allies beating it back, particularly if the USA was in the war.

However, it comes down to the details of the timeline before I can give a more detailed answer. In Calbear's AANW timeline, which I am a big fan of, the allies stomp any attempted invasion of the British Isles and then proceed to dismantle Nazie Germany as in the original AANW timeline.
 

MikeTurcotte

Kongzilla said:
I've been reading CalBears Anglo/American-Nazi war TL and it got me thinking. Why would hitler become a Turtle. Wouldn't he have gone on the offensive and tried to take Britain.

So I was just wondering what would happen and how it could happen potentially. I was just fascinated by the image of valiant homeguard fighting with Double barrel shotguns against Fallschirmjager armed with STG44s.

Also what effect would this have, would the British desperately rush the EM-2 into service. Would they issue a decree that anyone over the age of 17 in the colonies can be conscripted to fight for the Homeland. What kind of tanks would the Germans be using in the 50's. How would SAM's develop and would the Germans invest in a heavy bombing fleet.

Could the countries surrounding Germany be made loyal. With a daily dose of Propaganda and heavy incentives.

So it was just a thought I had. I dunno what do you think.
Click to expand...

Assuming some kind of weird standoff, then by 1955, Britain would toast Germany - especially a Germany run by Nazis - with ease. With the backing of the US, this becomes absurd.

Remember two types of powers in WWII.
1. The United States.
2. Everyone else.
 

GOU Limiting Factor

Yeah, any trick that gets you more Nazi hardware will work about twice as well for Britain and orders of magnitude better for the Western Allies as a whole.

A scarier scenario, though, would be someone like Heydrich using a failed invasion as leverage to 'retire' Hitler and take the reins of the Nazi state himself. Then we might be looking at real horrors like a rematch ten years down the line, or the fragmentation of the Nazi state into into competing, expansionist fiefdoms, some of which may have nuclear weapons.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Is there a way to reverse that. I mean by 1955 Nazi Germany run by someone who is not completely insane would be able to outproduce even America with all of Europes industry as well as some of the Soviets.

So by 44 a peace has settled across Europe, and the British feel safe from Invasion with their massive Navy and Air force to protect them from an Invasion.
Maybe to Increase the size of their navy Germamny takes over whats left of Japans in 45 when the USA and Britain are done kicking their Ass.

Wouldn't the Germans be able to outbuild the Americans and Brits. Would the American public seeing no threat from the Germans be getting kind of sick of having to produce war goods and much rather go back to consumer items. So by 50-51 a lot of Britains defenses would have to come from either herself or the colonies. I'm not really sure about the mindsets of the people or the economics

EDIT: I just read the Operation Downfall thread and I was wondering. With Britain and Americas attention fully on the Pacific, could they reach the Home Islands by 44 and have to launch Operation Downfall. With this being one of the Bloodiest battles in History, could it prevent the Americans from wanting to get engaged in another conflict that could be just as bloody. So they don't want to support the British all that much.
 
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