1945, Mussollini holes up

Not at all.
M in Spain would be the optimal solution for the allies and they would not dream to really push Franco for extradiction.
M's public process would mean making the italian communist party gain votes, and this was not certainly on the allies' agenda.
And I am not even taking into consideration the load of diplomacy dirty laundry that he could make public.
Surely there would be a formal request for it, along with a very clear message that such a request should NOT be accomplished.
In addition to that, Franco felt some genuine gratitude toward M for his help during the civil war.

Well, I guess I was assuming the Allies would ask for him... If they don't, or if the request is obviously for form's sake, then, sure, he could stay in Spain. Would his wife follow him to Spain, that's the question (would he want her to?)
 
The Italian Fascists commited plenty of atrocities in Spain and in Ethiopia.
Yes, but in the harsh reality of the real world, atrocities against Africans, especially those not caught on film, do not carry alot of weight. Rwanda is a good example.

I dont think he would remain in power, my guess is that he would be do a token prison sentence (if that), get pardoned and then go to Argentina or Spain
 
Yes, but in the harsh reality of the real world, atrocities against Africans, especially those not caught on film, do not carry alot of weight. Rwanda is a good example.

I dont think he would remain in power, my guess is that he would be do a token prison sentence (if that), get pardoned and then go to Argentina or Spain


He'd get a real sentence as the Allies would insist on it as during the war he was made out to be little better than Hitler. This was a great exageration of course but the Allies wouldn't want to publicly admit that. He might eventually get pardoned or his sentence communed if he wasn't sentenced to death.
 
Mussolini not dancing Danny Deever*?

Given how Italy was an Axis power in its own right and not some satellite regime like, say, Romania, I fail to see how Mussolini is going to get any mercy.

Mussolini could be charged for waging aggressive war against Greece, frex. And although Italian Communists may benefit from Mussolini swinging, the Greek Communists would benefit politically from the Allies not punishing the dastardly Fascist who attacked their country. And Greece was the bigger problem OTL.

*Slang for being hanged. I learned it from the novel Starship Troopers.
 
Well, I guess I was assuming the Allies would ask for him... If they don't, or if the request is obviously for form's sake, then, sure, he could stay in Spain. Would his wife follow him to Spain, that's the question (would he want her to?)

Probably.
She had a very old-fashoned-wife mindset, turning a blind eye to her husband's adventures.
However, she was also quite an unimportant figure.
A more interesting point would be whether his daughter (Edda Mussolini Ciano) would follow him.
Her father had her husband executed, and she still had his diaries (from the time when he was foreign minister in the 1938-1939)
 
Mussolini not dancing Danny Deever*?

Given how Italy was an Axis power in its own right and not some satellite regime like, say, Romania, I fail to see how Mussolini is going to get any mercy.

Mussolini could be charged for waging aggressive war against Greece, frex. And although Italian Communists may benefit from Mussolini swinging, the Greek Communists would benefit politically from the Allies not punishing the dastardly Fascist who attacked their country. And Greece was the bigger problem OTL.

*Slang for being hanged. I learned it from the novel Starship Troopers.

I am sorry but you are wrong.
The main reason for communist partisans killing M on the spot in OTL and delivering only his cold corpse is that everyone was sure that, if he was to arrive breathing in the hands of the allies, he would stay alive.
Also, the line about Greece being the bigger problem makes poor sense, no offence meant for that
 
I am sorry but you are wrong.
The main reason for communist partisans killing M on the spot in OTL and delivering only his cold corpse is that everyone was sure that, if he was to arrive breathing in the hands of the allies, he would stay alive.
Also, the line about Greece being the bigger problem makes poor sense, no offence meant for that

Since we're talking about a counterfactual scenario, there is no way you can definitively say that I am wrong.

And just because everybody is sure of something doesn't mean it's true.

About Greece, Greece was in the middle of a civil war between the royalists and the Communists. The possible Communist takeover of Greece and the Soviet Union's designs on Constantinople helped bring about the Truman Doctrine (containment) and NATO.

If Mussolini was not sufficiently punished, it would be a propaganda victory for the Greek Communists, something I would imagine Truman would want to avoid.
 
About Greece, Greece was in the middle of a civil war between the royalists and the Communists. The possible Communist takeover of Greece and the Soviet Union's designs on Constantinople helped bring about the Truman Doctrine (containment) and NATO.

If Mussolini was not sufficiently punished, it would be a propaganda victory for the Greek Communists, something I would imagine Truman would want to avoid.
What I mean is that:
1) at the time, Italy was a bigger prize than Greece. More population, industry, international exposure
2) Italy has just got out from a civil war.
And the communists were on the winning side.
3) Constantinople refers to Turkey, not to Greece.
A Red-Greece scenario would have been meant an higher commitment of Turkey to NATO
having both greece and tukey aligned on the same side OTL has been one of the strangest events of all the possible TLs :rolleyes:
 

Cook

Banned
About Greece, Greece was in the middle of a civil war between the royalists and the Communists. The possible Communist takeover of Greece and the Soviet Union's designs on Constantinople helped bring about the Truman Doctrine (containment) and NATO.
If Mussolini was not sufficiently punished, it would be a propaganda victory for the Greek Communists, something I would imagine Truman would want to avoid.

During the war Roosevelt, Marshal and later Truman and the Americans were indifferent to events in Greece, seeing it as up the Greek people to decide who was to govern them. They were constantly suspicious of Churchill’s motives in the Balkans, seeing it as the perpetuation of British Imperialist ambitions and outraged when Churchill’s ‘Spheres of influence’ agreement with Stalin came to light. The Americans refused to endorse the diverting of troops from the Italian campaign and refused to assist by providing the landing craft that would have been necessaryfor an assault on occupied Greece.

The Greek Communists had been supplied with equipment by Britain’s Special Operations Executive to use against the Italian and German occupiers. Unfortunately they did very little actual fighting against the occupation and agreed to local cease-fires with German commanders that allowed the Germans to withdraw from Greece largely unhindered in late ’44.

Once the Germans had withdrawn the British were able to land troops unopposed in Athens and were greeted with enthusiasm by the city’s population. Unfortunately things degenerated rapidly when the Communists refused to demobilise and the new Greek government began to fall apart, the Communist and Socialist ministers resigning from the national unity government on December 1, 1944. A semblance of order was restored by British force and a peace conference held that established a new government under Archbishop Damaskinos on 26 December. During this Stalin honoured his agreement with Churchill and did nothing to assist the Greek Communists in any way.

These events should not be mistaken for the Greek Civil War of 1946-49 which Britain asked the United States to assist the Greek government when they could no longer able to afford to help.

The main reason for communist partisans killing M on the spot in OTL and delivering only his cold corpse is that everyone was sure that, if he was to arrive breathing in the hands of the allies, he would stay alive.

The Garibaldi Brigades had been killing any Neo-Fascists that fell into their hands since the Italian Socialist Republic had been founded and the Partisan war had exploded into life in ‘44, Mussolini was no different. Equally, the neo-Fascists were killing any partisans they got their hands on.

Since the Patriotic Action Groups and Garibaldi Brigades saw themselves as the legitimate government of Italy they believed themselves to be fully justified in executing Mussolini and had no reason to hand him over to foreigners.

Some good books covering the events in Italy and Greece in 1944-45 are:
James Holland’s Italy’s Sorrow.
Max Hastings’ Finest Years.
Simon Ball’s The Bitter Sea.
 
I am sorry but you are wrong.
The main reason for communist partisans killing M on the spot in OTL and delivering only his cold corpse is that everyone was sure that, if he was to arrive breathing in the hands of the allies, he would stay alive.
Also, the line about Greece being the bigger problem makes poor sense, no offence meant for that

Sources?
Because AFAIK the reason behind the execution was a direct order by the National Liberation Committee. The same partisan committee that was full to the brim with US and British military advisors...I seriously doubt that the execution of Mussolini was a surprise for the Allies.


Other notes: first, can someone explain me how on hell the fascist government of Italy managed to have a "clean record" in WWII? Last time I checked in my history books there was a lot of war crimes attributed to Mussolini's government. Second, do you really think that Mussolini could be extradated by the Allies or by the post-armistice italian government? Or do you really think he would avoid a firing squad? Jeez, he was a war criminal. We exiled and threatened of death our last king for much less.
 
I really don't see how Mussolini would survive.

He was a primary member of the Axis, his fascists committed numerous atrocities against their own population, he engaged in aggressive wars of conquest against Greece and Yugoslavia, attacked France, and launched the African campaign. He cooperated with Hitler up and down the line. Outside of WWII, there's the whole invasion of Ethiopia, including I believe use of poison gas.

If he falls into the hands of allies then he most likely swings from a rope. I really can't imagine any other outcome.

And even if he makes it to Spain, I don't see Franco risking his regime by giving refuge to the guy. Frankly, that's didn't work out well for Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan.

If one wanted a timeline where Mussolini survives, then I think you'd need a POD where Mussolini, or some surviving part of his regime under his control, breaks with the Nazi's, joins the allies, possibly inviting allied troops in.
 
Sources?
Because AFAIK the reason behind the execution was a direct order by the National Liberation Committee. The same partisan committee that was full to the brim with US and British military advisors...I seriously doubt that the execution of Mussolini was a surprise for the Allies.
The official position of the CLN (Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale) was that he was to be bringed alive to the provisional government to be put on trial.
The CLN was a strange mixture of different souls, from Communists to Monarchists passing through republicans and catholics.
As you might expect, the communist wing was made of the most hard-liners against fascists, while the others were less.
The official position (capture, not kill, and have him on trial) was imposed on the CLN overruling the communist fraction protests because of the insistence of the US army HQ.
The firing in place was executed by a little partisan squad of the garibaldi brigade (the communist fraction of the CLN), and was done before taking any contact with the CLN headquarter.
Or at least that was the official explanation.
Nobody could rule out that an order actually was given insecret to execute him, but in that case, it came from the PCI (italian communist party) and not from the CLN, which condamned the thing (but did not take any measures against the ones doing that).
 
The official position of the CLN (Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale) was that he was to be bringed alive to the provisional government to be put on trial

That contrast with the official position of Audisio, the commander of the partisan squad that killed Mussolini: he was ordered to execute the Duce. No-one ever proved him wrong, AFAIK.


The CLN was a strange mixture of different souls, from Communists to Monarchists passing through republicans and catholics.
As you might expect, the communist wing was made of the most hard-liners against fascists, while the others were less.
The official position (capture, not kill, and have him on trial) was imposed on the CLN overruling the communist fraction protests because of the insistence of the US army HQ

You're avoiding to mention that Mussolini's convoy passed several small villages and town during his run towards the swiss border, sometimes bribing his way out. It was definitely not a low-profile escape attempt: the whereabouts of the Duce were know by the Committe and, I assume, by the Allied advisors.
Even if the official stance was "capture him", it's quite strange that a communist patrol reached him before any other partisan group. Even more strange if you consider that no-one proved Audisio took a personal initiative or followed the orders of a specific political party.
 
That contrast with the official position of Audisio, the commander of the partisan squad that killed Mussolini: he was ordered to execute the Duce.

And probably he was literally right, in the sense that the PCI gave its own orders to the Garibaldi brigades, and had accepted the official CLN stance only pro forma.

No-one ever proved him wrong, AFAIK.
Nobody persecuted him for taking his action, you mean.
But also nobody admitted giving that order; more, everybody flatly denied that such an order had been given.
That's official declaration, at least, wether he was given a secret order or not is matter of speculation, but it seems probable.

It was definitely not a low-profile escape attempt: the whereabouts of the Duce were know by the Committe and, I assume, by the Allied advisors.
Strange as it seems he has several sympathizers in the area (salo Republic and suchlikes)

Even more strange if you consider that no-one proved Audisio took a personal initiative or followed the orders of a specific political party.
No real investigation was made.
Italy was coming out from a civil war and the official position was that everything should be made to avoid another one between the communists and all the others.
A lot of killing happened between '45 and '48 which had never been investigated, and is still almost a taboo to speak of.
I am neither condemning nor justifying such a position: maybe it was necessary and maybe it was not, ethic is tricky and I don't want to have anything to do with it.
But it is a fact that such sort of thing happened a lot and was regularly covered.
 
And probably he was literally right, in the sense that the PCI gave its own orders to the Garibaldi brigades, and had accepted the official CLN stance only pro forma

No, I'm sorry, probably I spelled that wrong. He stated that the Committe gave him the execution order, not the Communist Party.


Nobody persecuted him for taking his action, you mean.
But also nobody admitted giving that order; more, everybody flatly denied that such an order had been given.
That's official declaration, at least, wether he was given a secret order or not is matter of speculation, but it seems probable

Nobody prosecuted him, nobody proved his claim were wrong. After an half-hearted investigation, quickly interrupted, everything was put under a blanket and forgotten. It seems that a "secret" order is out of question, at least to me. It seems pretty visible one.


Strange as it seems he has several sympathizers in the area (salo Republic and suchlikes)

Sympathizers, at that stage of the war, were very few and unreliable - even in the Republic of Salò area. It's worth mentioning also that several towns and cities in the Republic were fairly active in supporting (or even in the creation of) partisan groups.
 
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