1943 Axis forces don't reinforce Tunisia, saves 6th army?

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Deleted member 1487

Hypothetically if Hitler hadn't reinforced North Africa with a full army and with massive amounts of aircraft, mostly transports, could these forces have saved the 6th army at Stalingrad?
At the time the Germans were trying to supply the Stalingrad pockets hundreds of transport aircraft were being used to reinforce Tunisia and over 100,000 German troops were brought in, creating Army Group Africa. Eventually nearly 130,000 Germans and over 100,000 Italians would be captured. The Axis air forces flew several thousand sortees and according to wikipedia some 600+ planes were captured and some 1000+ were destroyed.
If these forces were used on the Eastern Front (not the Italian ones because they were needed to pull out of Africa), could it have made a decisive different at Stalingrad? We are talking about hundreds, if not around 1000, of fighters, bombers, transports, reconnaissance aircraft, etc. that would have been available if the Africa front were abandoned for pulling back to Sicily and holding there. That's not to mention the full army of German soldiers that could have been fighting on the Eastern front to try and break the ring around the 6th army.
 
I doubt the logistical capacity to employ those troops on the Eastern front existed at that moment. But surely, anywhere they go is better than sending them to 'go to jail. Go directly to jail and do not pass go.'

But those Ju53s could at least have made small difference for the 6th Armee, in that it might have lasted a week or two longer. Perhaps. But on the whole, correlation of forces was such that in the end it would have made very little difference for the final outcome. More interesting thing is if those troops were available for Kursk or Italy.
 
it's a question I have posed here several times and involved in several timelines

now the way I phrase it is Torch being delayed somehow by 6 weeks so that Uranus happens first and Hitler commits the strategic reserve to Winter Storm

so lets talk about the formations and assets

2nd fallschrimjaeger strength of a brigade plus the JU-52's... very large number of experienced men who had seen service Greece and Crete; most useful task for them is to be airlifted immediately to Kotelnikovo to secure the rail head so the remaining formations for winter storm have a safe place to assemble for their attack; whilst the 52's can be used to supplement the otl forces in the better weather (as they get committed right away) and keep the 6th army stronger and better prepared to assist in a breakout... this also frees up dozens of HE-111's with veteran crews to suppress the operation ring forces or to attack formations blocking the advance of the winter storm divisions

the 1st SS division Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler... this division was already fully mobilized and on alert prior to operation Uranus which allowed them to participate in case Anton in the first place. Their corps mates in the Das Reich and Totenkempf were not ready yet, however they could be sent by themselves and were the strongest formation in the army

HG Panzer Brigade... still mobilizing probably the last unit that would be sent... a possible reinforcement for withdrawing winter storm forces

10th Panzer... only the strength of a brigade and still mobilizing; 2nd line priority along with the HG

excess infantry that made up the 164 division etc etc... not important to the situation



IMO; beyond the aircraft, the most critical formations are the 2nd paratroopers and the 1st ss division. The para's put no stress on the rolling stock and would be able to secure the rail head. this instantly makes winter storm go better because the forces won't have to fight a huge meeting battle as they get off their trains that consumes a lot of their energy and supplies... with 6th army being better supplied, the operation has more time to develop and doesn't have to be as reckless

The Germans would have to work miracles with the rolling stock to ship 1st ss and 6th panzer to the front at the same time, but so long as Kotelnikovo was secure it could be done. In otl the supply branch shipped the 6th panzer from brittany to kotelnikovo in 10 days in 87 fully loaded railway cars (raus smartly putting machine guns and flak on the top of the cars against regulations which badly shot up several partisan attacks and a soviet camel division trying to storm their rail head)... similar resources could be applied to 1st ss; although it will absolutely and categorically put off 10th panzer and hg panzer's arrival by at least 3 weeks (still worth it since 1st ss was stronger than both of those formations combined)

with the those additional forces, the question becomes what do you do with them... the paras after securing the railhead should have their battalions flown into the pocket to reinforce 6th army (as they are used to operating with limited logistical support and are fresh and fanatical... whilst 6th army wounded could continue to be flown out keeping morale up)

then it becomes what do you do with the leibstandarte, send them in the northern front with 11th panzer to draw off and defeat the 51st and 52nd army and hopefully draw away operation ring forces, weakening resistance to 6th and 22nd panzer's thrust to the south; or do you send them in with the 6 in the south creating a battering ram of 350 tanks and assault guns (including tigers) and 30k fresh infantry with the two strongest and freshest formations attacking together into the 51st army and Rokosovvsky's forces


IMO the best choice is the former, because the soviets considered that attack to be the main attack and would throw all of their reserves at it if it was stronger... it may also preclude little saturn as stalin may stop the 2nd guards, and reorient them to attack the SS, leaving the path easier for 6th panzer to reach the pocket.... the later has the risk of mega encirclement due to the greater extension of forces in the south in the face of little saturn written all over it
 
Reaching the pocket however is only half the battle. The forces within the pocket lacked the trucks and vehicles to actually move with the rescue force to safety, which makes the breakthrough rather pointless. All it does is leave the rescue forces overextended and liable to be encircled themselves, and only a handful of units from the pocket could be evacuated at best.
 
Actually, I think the troops sent to Tunisia, in hindsight, would consider themselves lucky to have not gone to Stalingrad

(quick edit) Of course with majority now being killed off in Frozen Russia does this kill off any German Tunisia POWs that would have gone on to become important in our history?
 
Reaching the pocket however is only half the battle. The forces within the pocket lacked the trucks and vehicles to actually move with the rescue force to safety, which makes the breakthrough rather pointless. All it does is leave the rescue forces overextended and liable to be encircled themselves, and only a handful of units from the pocket could be evacuated at best.

Depends on when they reach the pocket. Early on Paulus expected to evacuate & when the initial offensive to lift the siege started he begain execution of a operation to break through to meet the relief force. This was to be led by Seydlitzs mechanized corps, with the infantry sliding out through the corridor thus created. Paulus & his staff seem to have thought this practical. However the order to stand fast came though. Survivors claim the opportunity faded rapidly over the next couple weeks, the destruction of the fuel reserve being a critical event. The horses of the infantry divisions weakened rapidly as well as there was little reserve of grain feed. Without that they could not remain healthy in the cold, with incapacitation and death for the horses coming rapidly.
 
The reverse of this is the Brit/US forces finish up in Tunisia just in time for Ike to report victory at the January 'Symbol' confrence at Casablanca. That lets Brooke & Churchill argue for proceeding with all sorts of new operations in the Mediterranean. With so many Axis forces off in the east it would be practical for operations Brimstone and Husky to be made early & in rapid sucession. How much longer will Mussolini remain in power if Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicilly are all overrun during Febuary to April? If things go that easily the Allies are likely to take a swipe at Crete or some other Greek island as well.

So the 6th Army is saved, or whats left of it, and the German airforces are worn out from the winter fighting in the east. In the west Mussolini may be deposed four months early, and Bagdoglio negotiating with the Allies in April instead of September.
 
Reaching the pocket however is only half the battle. The forces within the pocket lacked the trucks and vehicles to actually move with the rescue force to safety, which makes the breakthrough rather pointless. All it does is leave the rescue forces overextended and liable to be encircled themselves, and only a handful of units from the pocket could be evacuated at best.

manstein organized a massive supply tail under oberst funk just behind the southern arm of winter storm with 800 fully loaded trucks carrying 3000 tonnes of supplies and quite a number of prime movers to remobilize the 6th army's artillery for withdrawl

if the airlift is much more forceful, not only will 6th army's food/fuel/tank availability situation be much better (ie tanks won't be abandoned due to lack of fuel/parts/ammo), but wounded can be rotated out and replaced with fresh infantry (2nd parachute being the first and best candidate for this)
 

sharlin

Banned
The airlift simply was not sustainable. Goering seems to have just gone 'Umm...yeah we can do it!' when Hitler asked him whilst Goerings officers who knew better probably felt queasy. To keep the 6th army supplied by air would take replacing all the JU-52s with C-130 Herculese planes.
 
The airlift simply was not sustainable. Goering seems to have just gone 'Umm...yeah we can do it!' when Hitler asked him whilst Goerings officers who knew better probably felt queasy. To keep the 6th army supplied by air would take replacing all the JU-52s with C-130 Herculese planes.

Not even this helps unless the same change also affects the Soviet AA and gives them slings or pea shooters instead of guns. A few hundred more Ju52s might, as I opined already, make airlift go on for a few more days, but nothing else.
 

sharlin

Banned
Ahh yes I forgot that too. Basically the airlift was impossible, they could not get in the supplies the 6th army needed because there was not enough transport aircraft in the German airforce. Period. They needed something along the lines of 600 tonnes per day, the Luftwaffe said they could do perhaps 400 and even then only for a short time, and then Goering waded in and said the 6th army's estimates were too high and they would have to go off what the Luftwaffe could fly in.

If memory serves the Luftwaffe even resorted to using Condors and a few JU-290 as well as HE-111's to carry supplies and even then it simply wasn't enough. And as Shaby pointed out you're going to have to discount the terrible weather and the ring of AA guns and heavily reinforced fighter divisions the soviets spammed the region with.

If Winterstorm succeeded because of the additional troops available the 6th army would have still been a broken and useless rabble. Palus would have somehow had to get his tired, exhuasted and slowly starving troops out of a city where the Russians were not holding them by the belt buckles. But by the throat and balls, then march across largely open terrain in terribly cold weather and thick snow and somehow maintain cohesion. The Germans were good soldiers, but the 6th army was not an invincible legion of ubermensch and asking them to try and get out of Stalingrad is probably too much.

If Winterstorm succeeded, I severely doubt that the Soviets would have allowed the corredor the Germans were trying to keep open successful and Winter Storm was doomed to failure because of events taking place hundreds of kilometers to the North when the Soviets launched yet another offensive that broke the weakened German lines and then threatened to encircle the Winter Storm forces if it succeeded like Uranus did.
 
The airlift simply was not sustainable. Goering seems to have just gone 'Umm...yeah we can do it!' when Hitler asked him whilst Goerings officers who knew better probably felt queasy. To keep the 6th army supplied by air would take replacing all the JU-52s with C-130 Herculese planes.

This is only half true, yes HG blindly promised Hitler to supply the pocket without consulting the people who could tell him what assets the LW actually had available BUT without Torch, the Germans could supply the pocket for at least a moderate period of time

The LW supplied 100k men in the Demyansk pocket for more than 90 days in the winter of 41 - spring 42

Without Torch, the stronger winter storm would have a rescue window no more than 30-35 days from the encirclement (and the 6th army of course did have some supplies on hand when they were trapped)

Assuming the commitment of 150 additional JU-52's (plus spares and replacements over two weeks) for transport after they bring up the 2nd parachute division to Kotelnikovo this would represent a gigantic improvement in the 6th army's logistical situation. These forces would also be augmented by the fighters and bombers not used to combat torch which can be used to suppress Russian ground forces

With lets say 100 of the 150 available each day, making two trips, 75 on cargo, 25 on infantry replacement with all units returning with wounded at a rate of 15 men per trip (not dangerously overloading them with 20 plus men like otl, since there are more birds available)

thats 300 tonnes of additional cargo per day, more than enough to keep the 6th army's bellies and cartridge pouches when you add that to the otl effort; hell it's enough spare for them to remobilize their 120 tanks over a period of two weeks or so

it will also 750 fresh infantry into the pocket each day (first 4 days of this work to bring in the 3000 men of the 2nd parachute) whilst evacuating upwards of 3000 of the 6th army's wounded on a daily basis

since this would be prepared within a week of the encirclement you have the first flights in much better weather, with stronger escorts as opposed to slop they flew in late december

so with the 6th army supplied beyond just survival, not burdened with 10's of thousands of wounded and reinvigorated with a couple divisions worth of fresh infantry AND with their tanks mobilized, they would be a fairly potent force to try and break out to the west towards the winter storm forces; once the supply tail pushes through to them, their artillery will be remobilized (and they will be supplied for 5 days of offensive operations) and need to retire just 120 miles to Kotelnikovo at the railhead before their retirement to rostov; where they would be hopefully meeting the HG and 10th panzer division to provide reinforcement or slow down little saturn forces
 

sharlin

Banned
Thats the best best best case scinario i've ever read. 300 tonnes a day? The luftwaffe couldn't manage barely 200, you're not factoring in weather, which the planes aint built for, enemy action, the soviets built a veritable wall of AA guns round Stalingrad to contain the 6th, the fighter regiments the Soviets rushed to the area (the germans did loose control of the air round Stalingrad.)

The troops heading south would probably be not as fresh as you hope, either due to weather (again, bastard cold), partisan action (everyone forgets them) supply problems (getting these troops, tanks this far into russia on an already collapsing supply line. Funnelling 750 troops in per day to keep the kessel from collapsing just puts more men at risk, the Soviets were going to launch little Uranus no matter what and thats what stopped winter storm, because it threatened to encircle all the forces involved in that if the Soviets achived a full breakthrough as they did with Uranus.

No matter what happens, the 6th army, what was left of it was doomed.
 
Thats the best best best case scinario i've ever read. 300 tonnes a day? The luftwaffe couldn't manage barely 200, you're not factoring in weather, which the planes aint built for, enemy action, the soviets built a veritable wall of AA guns round Stalingrad to contain the 6th, the fighter regiments the Soviets rushed to the area (the germans did loose control of the air round Stalingrad.)

The troops heading south would probably be not as fresh as you hope, either due to weather (again, bastard cold), partisan action (everyone forgets them) supply problems (getting these troops, tanks this far into russia on an already collapsing supply line. Funnelling 750 troops in per day to keep the kessel from collapsing just puts more men at risk, the Soviets were going to launch little Uranus no matter what and thats what stopped winter storm, because it threatened to encircle all the forces involved in that if the Soviets achived a full breakthrough as they did with Uranus.

No matter what happens, the 6th army, what was left of it was doomed.


The LW was barely using 50 aircraft for the airlift due to serviceability problems and their total overstretch from operation torch during the otl lift

Without torch I was assuming that of the more than 250 transports committed 150 could be on rotating operations to supply stalingrad, with 2/3 available on a daily basis (for mechanical problems/weather/battle damage etc). Without torch they also have more than 80 additional fighters and 150 additional bombers that can be committed to 4th Luftflotten... there are home defense fighters than can be rotated in as well or fighters stationed in Norway

The 2nd parachute was fresh and would have to defend kotelnikovo from camel troops before they would ultimately be flown into the pocket... but they are good troops to fight in the pocket as they are trained to operate with limited logistical support

6th panzer otl was fresh resting and training in brittany

1st ss was fresh having been out of russia nearly half a year and been rebuilt to full strength (with tigers as well)

10th panzer and HG were untried formations to be used in the second wave

the additional infantry to fly into the pocket (assuming they used otl forces from torch) would come from the garrison in crete and thus considered fresh

the winter storm forces didn't suffer from supply problems other than having to fight to reestablish their rail head on the way in; which in this scenario 2nd parachute would negate by being flown in to secure the rail yards within 96 hours of the crises; so the tanks have a safe place to assemble... 6th panzer's otl train convoy was attacked by partisans, but the germans had taken defensive measures of putting machine guns and flak on the tops of the rail cars; and thus beat off all the attacks with heavy losses to the partisans
 

sharlin

Banned
Where are you going to base these aircraft and also supply them? You're going to have to use many of the transport planes you've brought with you to fly in enough fuel for the airdrop to work. The Germans airbases were rudimantary affairs at best they don't have the room for the mass of aircraft, men and spares you're talking about. Bringing more aircraft is just going to add to the logistics problems affecting the germans in the region.
 
Where are you going to base these aircraft and also supply them? You're going to have to use many of the transport planes you've brought with you to fly in enough fuel for the airdrop to work. The Germans airbases were rudimantary affairs at best they don't have the room for the mass of aircraft, men and spares you're talking about. Bringing more aircraft is just going to add to the logistics problems affecting the germans in the region.

not having Kotelnikovo turned into a meeting battle location takes care of most of that problem; as the ground around it was flat and the railhead already existing there

if the paratroopers and the few tanks in the area defeat and drive off the camel troops then almost everything could stage from there (and the big bases in the crimea and the kuban whose names elude me at the moment)

transports flying from kotelnikovo would only take 40 minutes to reach stalingrad, and thus even with slow loading of supplies and wounded could still expect to sortie twice a day without total pilot exhaustion
 

sharlin

Banned
They were not just camel troops but they had artillery support. Also if the Russians learn that para troops have been dumped near them they would probably lob as much armour at them as possible.
 
They were not just camel troops but they had artillery support. Also if the Russians learn that para troops have been dumped near them they would probably lob as much armour at them as possible.

except the paratroopers would arrive 5 days before the camel cavalry did and thus would have a chance to dig in, set up defensive positions and put the panzer 4's from the work shop there into central reserve; and would be reinforced by 6th panzer about the same time the cavalry arrives making the position unbreakable. also the paras would dig out a good bit outside of town so the cavalry doesn't get into artillery range of the rail yards in the first place, and once 6th panzer arrives it's game over for the cavalry

with the additional aircraft on station, the cavalry will be identified and probably attacked en route earlier, perhaps slowing their advance until 6th panzer is assembled and in place, at which point it would be wise for them not to attack at all; camel vs panzer 4 only has one outcome
 

Deleted member 1487

I'll just add this in to the discussion:
http://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/operation-winter-storm/winterstorm.htm
opwintermap.jpg


Operation Winter Storm.


General Hoth's attempt to relief the German 6th Army at Stalingrad

Hitler's early decision to hold 6th Army in the Stalingrad pocket and liberate it with a
makeshift force may have been his worst possible option when he imposed it but it
soon became the only one, short of surrender, as the army's low stocks of food, fuel,
and ammunition dwindled sharply. There was a time in the last week of November when
he might have pulled Army Group A out of the Caucasus and gone for Paulus with everything
he could put together, although it would have been very, very difficult. There was also a time,
it is not likely but a possibility, when Paulus might have fought his way out with heavy loss
of life. By early December, however, no course of action lay open other than the one the
Fuehrer had chosen. It was too late to assemble a strong force, and Paulus was almost
immobile. In the circumstances, the Germans mounted an effort that for spectacular futility
is reminiscent of the Charge of the Light Brigade in 1854, with this difference, that instead
of the 673 British cavalrymen who rode into the valley of death at Balaclava they had three
panzer divisions (which were new to the area) and supporting units (which were dazed from
recent combat). It was a strange piece of business. Whether anyone at the High Command
seriously thought 75,000 men and 500 tanks could break through to Stalingrad seventy-five
miles to the northeast or whether this was a sacrificial operation that one conception of military
honor seems to demand may never be known. It is certain, however, they never had a
chance. Everything was against them, time, weather, the terrain, manpower, firepower,
long lines of communication and supply. There were guns to the right of them, guns to the
left of them, and, as always since late July, more Russians out ahead than the generals
realized or would acknowledge.

Operation Winter Storm.


General Hoth's attempt to relief the German 6th Army at Stalingrad

Hitler's early decision to hold 6th Army in the Stalingrad pocket and liberate it with a
makeshift force may have been his worst possible option when he imposed it but it
soon became the only one, short of surrender, as the army's low stocks of food, fuel,
and ammunition dwindled sharply. There was a time in the last week of November when
he might have pulled Army Group A out of the Caucasus and gone for Paulus with everything
he could put together, although it would have been very, very difficult. There was also a time,
it is not likely but a possibility, when Paulus might have fought his way out with heavy loss
of life. By early December, however, no course of action lay open other than the one the
Fuehrer had chosen. It was too late to assemble a strong force, and Paulus was almost
immobile. In the circumstances, the Germans mounted an effort that for spectacular futility
is reminiscent of the Charge of the Light Brigade in 1854, with this difference, that instead
of the 673 British cavalrymen who rode into the valley of death at Balaclava they had three
panzer divisions (which were new to the area) and supporting units (which were dazed from
recent combat). It was a strange piece of business. Whether anyone at the High Command
seriously thought 75,000 men and 500 tanks could break through to Stalingrad seventy-five
miles to the northeast or whether this was a sacrificial operation that one conception of military
honor seems to demand may never be known. It is certain, however, they never had a
chance. Everything was against them, time, weather, the terrain, manpower, firepower,
long lines of communication and supply. There were guns to the right of them, guns to the
left of them, and, as always since late July, more Russians out ahead than the generals
realized or would acknowledge.

Meanwhile, the Russians, thinking they could destroy Paulus before the German attempt, fried
to eat their cake and have it. They strengthened their outer line of encirclement at the expense
of the inner line, then ordered reinforcements to the inner line from far away. On December 1st
they began moving men of the 51st Armyfrom the inner ring toward Kotelnikovo. The 51st had
34,000 men, 77 tanks, and 419 guns and mortars. On the third they activated Malinovsky's
1st Reserve Army as the 2nd Guards and ordered it in a wide sweep from the
distant upper Don to the inner ring. And on the ninth, getting wind of activity near the Don
Crossings where 48th Corps was gathering, they organized a new 5th Shock Army to meet
a threat from that direction. The 5th was hastily put together but it had 71,000 men, 252
tanks, and 804 guns and mortars, strong enough with the 51st, thought Stavka, to block the
Germans until Paulus was crushed. As late as the eleventh, Stalin (Vasiliev) told Vasilievsky
(Mikhailov) to go ahead with a new plan for destroying 6th Army:

TO MIKHAILOV ( PERSONAL ONLY)

1. CARRY OUT OPERATION KOLTSO [RING] IN TWO STAGES.

2. FIRST STAGE : ENTRY INTO BASAROINO AND VOROPONOVO AREAS AND LIQUIDATION OF
ENEMY'S WESTERN AND SOUTHERN GROUPS.

3. SECOND STAGE : GENERAL ASSAULT WITH ALL ARMIES OF BOTH FRONTS TO LIQUIDATE
GREAT BULK OF ENEMY FORCES WEST AND NORTHWEST OF STALINGRAD.

4. LAUNCH FIRST STAGE OF OPERATION NOT LATER THAN DATE FIXED DURING TELEPHONE
CONVERSATION BETWEEN VASILIEV AND MIKHAILOV.

5. FINISH FIRST STAGE OF OPERATION NOT LATER THAN DECEMBER 23RD.

VASILIEV

But General Hoth, who under Manstein's control was in command of Wintergewitter
(Operation Winter Storm), struck first. Not waiting for 17th Panzer to arrive from Tormosin,
he took off on the twelfth with 6th Panzer to the left of the rail line and 23rd Panzer to the right.
The suffering in 6th Army was becoming unbearable, further delay could be fatal.

Stalin hesitated. Could he crush 6th Army and then deal with the relief force, or would it have
to be the relief force and then the encircled army ?

Saturday, December 12, 1942

No decision. Formations of the 51st Army tried to stem the tide.

Sunday, December 13, 1942

Still no decision. Hoth shoved back the 51st and crossed the Aksai River.

Monday, December 14, 1942

With 5th Shock Army Eremenko liquidated 48th Panzer Corps' bridgehead at the Don
crossings, but alarmed by Hoth's penetration of his left he called for reinforcements.
Specifically he asked Stalin for the 2nd Guards Army that was unloading from trains in the
north and moving down to join Rokossovsky's assault on the ring.

Stalin called Vasilievsky, who was at Rokossovsky's command post. What about it?
he asked. Rokossovsky took the phone.

The 2nd Guards? No, said Rokossovsky. Eremenko could have the 21st Army, a
weaker force, but he, Rokossovsky, needed the Guards. With the Guards he could finish
the 6th quickly, then the relief force could be overcome and all armies move on Rostov to
cut off the Germans in the Caucasus.

Stalin spoke to Vasilievsky again. What did he think? Vasilievsky sided with Eremenko.

All right, said Stalin. Orders would be cut sending the Guards to the stouth. But, objected
Rokossovsky, 6th Army could not be crushed without it. In that case, said Stalin, let it go
for now.

Tuesday, December 15, 1942

Hoth's drive stalled.

Wednesday, December 16, 1942

Seventeenth Panzer Division, long delayed, began to take its place in the German line.

Thursday, December 17, 1942

It snowed during the night and rained during the day, bad tank weather for Hoth, who
resumed his advance west of the rail line with 17th Panzer on his left, 6th Panzer in the
center, and the 23rd to his right. Despite the mud and Russian resistance, 6th Panzer
reached the Mishkova.

But Hoth was in trouble. Forty-eighth Panzer Corps could not come out to join him, and
although he had moved forty miles since Saturday and had only thirty-five to go, casualties
were severe and irreplaceable, the nights long and freezing.

On this day not one transport plane got through to 6th Army, which was thought to have
scarcely enough fuel to move some tank and motorized units eighteen miles out of the
pocket.

Friday, December 18, 1942

Sixth Panzer won a bridgehead on the north side of the Mishkova.

Malinovsky activated his command post beyond the bridgehead. Because his powerful 2nd
Guards Army was strung out behind him, the men marching night and day, Stavka gave him
the 4th Mechanized Corps, the 87th Division, and the remnants of Shapkin's cavalry corps.

Saturday, December 19, 1942

The Guards were pulling in, first the 98th Division of the 1st Corps, then the 3rd Guards of the
13th Corps. K. V. Sviridov's 2nd Mechanized Corps was right behind them.

What did the Germans know about them? Nothing whatsoever. They were not mentioned in
an estimate of the situation which Manstein passed on to Zeitzler this day or in a long,
equivocal "order" he sent to Paulus which seemed to say (a) that Paulus was to come out to
meet Hoth "as soon as possible" but without giving up the pocket (Operation Winter Storm
as approved by Hitler) and (b) that the developing situation might make it necessary for
Paulus to pull out entirely but that he should do so only upon receipt of an "express order"
(Operation Thunderclap, which was not yet, and never to be, approved)." In short, Manstein
wanted Paulus, with the little intelligence available to him, to fight his way through Russian
forces of undetermined strength over a distance for which he did not have the fuel and at
precisely a time when because of the arrival of the Guards the Manstein-Hoth drive was
about stopped in its tracks. Later on, after the war, Manstein would show he tried to persuade
Hitler to approve Thunderclap and say Paulus should have launched it with or without
permission, but no one to this day has been able to explain how Thunderclap or Winter Storm
could have been carried out.

Sunday, December 20, 1942

Hoth, whose men were exhausted now from lack of sleep, gained a few more miles but to
Zeitzler in East Prussia Manstein reported "radio traffic of a new 2nd Army of three corps
in the area northwest of Stalingrad." The Guards were not northwest of Stalingrad; they
were south-west of it and directly before Hoth's panzers.

Monday, December 21, 1942

More Guards units arrived. Their numbers were overwhelming.

Tuesday, December 22, 1942

Hoth had only twenty-two to twenty-five miles to go. If he gained another ten or twelve,
Paulus might have a chance to meet him.
But the turning point had come. The Russian 6th Mechanized Corps reached the field of
battle. Rotmistrov's 7th Tank Corps was shifted from 5th Shock to further strengthen the
Guards.

Hoth could not advance. He could not stay where he was. He must pull back.

Wednesday, December 23, 1942

Sixth Panzer was moved to the west side of the Don to meet a threat to the distant German left.

Thursday, December 24, 1942

The day before Christmas, and the Russians launched a general offensive against Hoth with the
2nd Guards, 5th Shock, and 51st Armies.

Friday, December 25, 1942

Christmas Day, and Hoth was in full retreat. The Russians pushed on until four days later they
took Kotelnikovo, Hoth's point of departure.​
 

sharlin

Banned
Basically this says 'no matter how many troops the germans have it won't be enough' they were not ubermensch super fighters, but normal men and they could not accomplish miracles.
 
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