1941: Hitler Condemns Pearl Harbor Attack

Yet again, we've had this before. Hitler makes offers of a peace to Britain on the basis of the status quo. If, after that, Roosevelt had tried to give help to Britain (which he wouldn't have, he was a remarkably cautious and cold blooded politician), he'd have been lucky to get off with impeachment. From the point of view of the average American, we've lost the Pacific Fleet, nobody knows what the Japanese will do next, and here's Hitler offering us support and Roosevelt's still trying to divert resources to Britain? Let's see now, you've got the Republicans, the Isolationists, the Anti-Communists, the Asia Lobby (to coin a phrase), Roosevelt's opponents from his own party, the US military, the Catholic hierarchy, the press, industry, Wall Street, German Americans....
 
Prunesquallor said:
Yet again, we've had this before. Hitler makes offers of a peace to Britain on the basis of the status quo. If, after that, Roosevelt had tried to give help to Britain (which he wouldn't have, he was a remarkably cautious and cold blooded politician), he'd have been lucky to get off with impeachment. From the point of view of the average American, we've lost the Pacific Fleet, nobody knows what the Japanese will do next, and here's Hitler offering us support and Roosevelt's still trying to divert resources to Britain? Let's see now, you've got the Republicans, the Isolationists, the Anti-Communists, the Asia Lobby (to coin a phrase), Roosevelt's opponents from his own party, the US military, the Catholic hierarchy, the press, industry, Wall Street, German Americans....

Pruesquallor

Could be complex but would Roosevelt be able and willing to cut the aid already reaching Britain, especially since the two are allied in the war against Japan? Also he is already sending L-L to Russia so he would have to stop that. Changing a policy is a far bigger step then not starting a new one.

Also there are strong interests for continuing aid. There are a lot of eastern Europeans and probably other Germans and Italians who oppose the fascists. Coupled with that Britain. being committed to virtually free trade is probably a better potential market than the closely controlled Nazi zone with its commitment to a protectionism that made that time's US look a free-trader.

To desert Britain would anger a lot of people in the US. There may be more Americans who don't care about the situation in Europe but then how many of them would be voters he could win anyway? Furthermore he would have the problem that the considerable amounts of aid that went to China went through British controlled territory. Would the China lobby be willing to put them at risk?

Why would the Catholic hierarchy be supporting the Nazis, especially given the number of Americans from Poland and other eastern European countries? There are probably not many French in the US but they do have an impact from the historical alliance between the initial rebels and the French. there might be some Italians supporting Mussolini but there would probably be a fair number of others opposing him.

If Hitler suggested a peace with Britain what if Roosevelt responds with a suggestion for a negotiated peace including the Soviets. Once Hitler rejected that his position would be undermined.

If the US did follow your path it might force Britain to make peace but it would cause serious tension between the two powers.

Steve
 
Steve- on reversal of policy- look at the end of Lend-Lease. IIRC, there were actually American ships in British ports which immediately sailed back to the US with their unladen cargoes.

There may be various people from Eastern Europe who are anti-German. But I suspect these would be outnumbered by those who know that their governments, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, are German allies and will follow the homeland. In the middle of a war, I don't think free trade and protectionism are going to be a major issue with most voters. And the "China Lobby" would have been more than pleased to give up the aid to China through British controlled territories (which Britain had already stopped once under Japanese pressure) in exchange for total US effort against Japan.

The Catholic Church. Anti-Communism (look at its reaction to the Spanish Civil War). The attitude of Pius XII.

Poland. I suspect (here, I'll admit, I'm guessing) most Polish Americans had no real concept of what was happening there. They saw it as a re-run of WWI, where eventually the Germans having made gains in the West would smash Russia leaving a new Polish state ready to expand to the the East.

French and Italian Americans? Why should they be any different from those back home?

Hitler had already made noises about a negotiated peace with Britain, and Churchill had rejected them. If Roosevelt had made diplomatic moves in Europe, Hitler could quite easily play the part of the reasonable man- after all,
he had what he wanted. All of which would simply back up the average Americans view that if Germany is on our side against Japan and if Britain continues to fight Germany (despite Hitler's approaches), why should we continue to waste our armaments backing Britain.
 
Prunesquallor said:
Steve- on reversal of policy- look at the end of Lend-Lease. IIRC, there were actually American ships in British ports which immediately sailed back to the US with their unladen cargoes.

Will concede that, although in this case its not ditching an ally when you think you have no further use for it but in the middle of a war.

Prunesquallor said:
There may be various people from Eastern Europe who are anti-German. But I suspect these would be outnumbered by those who know that their governments, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, are German allies and will follow the homeland. In the middle of a war, I don't think free trade and protectionism are going to be a major issue with most voters. And the "China Lobby" would have been more than pleased to give up the aid to China through British controlled territories (which Britain had already stopped once under Japanese pressure) in exchange for total US effort against Japan.
The governments in those places were pro-Axis but not all the people. In other places, such as Yuglosavia and Greece its more cut and dried. Britain only cut the Burnma road at a time when it was of little use, and becuase it could get no support from the US. Hwever it was still the only way to get aid through to China. Would the China lobby be willing to hang China out to dry for several years?


Prunesquallor said:
The Catholic Church. Anti-Communism (look at its reaction to the Spanish Civil War). The attitude of Pius XII.
Yes its anti-Communist. That doesn't necessarily mean its favourable to a dangerous rival like the Nazis. Both competed for loyalty amongst the same population groups.


Prunesquallor said:
Poland. I suspect (here, I'll admit, I'm guessing) most Polish Americans had no real concept of what was happening there. They saw it as a re-run of WWI, where eventually the Germans having made gains in the West would smash Russia leaving a new Polish state ready to expand to the the East.
I think they would have to be pretty ignorant of the circumstances. In WWI there was no Poland and the state was able to be re-founded because both neighbours had exhausted themselves and virtually collapsed. In this a Poland did exist and was brutally crushed by the Nazis. [True there was strong anti-Communist and anti-Russian feeling and the Soviets also played a part but they were secondary in the attack on Poland to the Germans]. I can't see many people of Polish descent being favourable to a peace with Hitler.


Prunesquallor said:
French and Italian Americans? Why should they be any different from those back home?
Partly because they has spent time in a democratic state?

Prunesquallor said:
Hitler had already made noises about a negotiated peace with Britain, and Churchill had rejected them. If Roosevelt had made diplomatic moves in Europe, Hitler could quite easily play the part of the reasonable man- after all,
he had what he wanted. All of which would simply back up the average Americans view that if Germany is on our side against Japan and if Britain continues to fight Germany (despite Hitler's approaches), why should we continue to waste our armaments backing Britain.

Hitler already had a reputation for breaking deals. Furthermore is deserting an ally who is willing to fight alongside you for someone who makes a few empty statements a wise move.

Don't forget we're not talking about the US joining the conflict in Europe here. We're talking about it cutting support to a nation fighting alongside it. Even if Britain and Germany makes peace do you think Britain would be stupid enough to strip many forces from the home islands and ME? Whatever happens the country will have to invest the bulk of its resources in Europe.

As I said in my previous mail there are a number of groups on both sides. However the ones opposing democracy in Europe are not ones who would be likely to vote for Roosevelt anyway. Therefore they would be far less important to an experienced politician like him.

If the US does do this then I'm not sure what Britain would do. I think it could fight on without US support, although would rather it took that approach earlier, before it had been totally asset stripped. Also by this time the country and its allies were very heavily committed to the fight against the Nazis. It could mean a long war in both Europe and Asia.

Steve
 
Steve- where are you based? I don't mean this as an insult. Simply that I'm currently living in the north of England and I tend to come back and find your new posting when I've got a bellyfull of Guinness from my local. When I'm sober I may try a more coherent answer. But to me, yet again, the central point is this- that you've got a situation where America has had a massive shock, there's a tendency towards panic, and a potential enemy now expresses its moral support. Even leaving aside the factions which had wanted to keep the US clear of Europe, the average American would now have found all sorts of virtues in Hitler. Hitler would have been on the cover of TIME as "Man of the Year"! The problem is that people tend to think of the situation in Dec 1941 in terms of later events. And to simply dismiss the various groups who opposed Roosevelt's foreign policy as "opposing democracy" is simplistic. They might equally say that they weren't opposing democracy, they just didn't see any reason to pull the the British Empire's chestnuts out of the fire. As it happens, I'm damned pleased Hitler declared war on America and dragged her into the European conflict. Simply I don't think it was inevitable.
 
Prunesquallor said:
Steve- where are you based? I don't mean this as an insult. Simply that I'm currently living in the north of England and I tend to come back and find your new posting when I've got a bellyfull of Guinness from my local. When I'm sober I may try a more coherent answer. But to me, yet again, the central point is this- that you've got a situation where America has had a massive shock, there's a tendency towards panic, and a potential enemy now expresses its moral support. Even leaving aside the factions which had wanted to keep the US clear of Europe, the average American would now have found all sorts of virtues in Hitler. Hitler would have been on the cover of TIME as "Man of the Year"! The problem is that people tend to think of the situation in Dec 1941 in terms of later events. And to simply dismiss the various groups who opposed Roosevelt's foreign policy as "opposing democracy" is simplistic. They might equally say that they weren't opposing democracy, they just didn't see any reason to pull the the British Empire's chestnuts out of the fire. As it happens, I'm damned pleased Hitler declared war on America and dragged her into the European conflict. Simply I don't think it was inevitable.

I'm in southern England. Tend to get on late in the day after various other things. [Worked late tonight so only been here an hour or so tonight]!

Possibly my nationalistic streak coming through. I agree with you it would almost certainly be a disaster for everybody if the US had stayed out of the main war. [Not arguing that US entry was inevitable and think that Hitler could have delayed things a far bit. Just that the idea of the US cutting aid to Britain because it thought its interests were better served by friendship with Hitler seems highly unlikely].

There were a lot of isolationists and both Anglophobes and anti-Communists in the US. However there were also a lot of reasonably well educated people who would have been aware of the danger Hitler posed to the US. Also the US had already committed itself to 'aid short of war' for both Britain and Russia by this time. Such an approach by Hitler might have reduced tension between Germany and the US and won over a few of the more extreme. However I suspect a lot would have been thinking more 'who is he trying to kid'. Given his existing record of betrayal and breaking his word I suspect he would not have seriously weaken US commitment to the war in Europe.

True there is a counter argument about rescuing the British empire which was used by some of our opponents. [Ignoring this would apply far more to the war against Japan]. However the counter argument that those who favoured better relations with the Nazis being weak on democracy would be more damaging to them I suspect.

Anyway, we're both arguing from fairly entrenched positions I suspect. What do other people think?

Steve
 
ThomasG said:
A few things automatically happen. Number One MacArthur orders his B-17s to strike Formosa and just in time as well. Of 500 Japanese Bombers and Fighters on Formosa, some 180 are destroyed along with many pilots. Meanwhile P-40Bs and P-36Ds spot several Japanese ships enroute to Batan Island with the Aircraft Carrier Ryujo in attendance. Ryujo has 21 Kates and 21 Claudes. Needless to say, this force is blown out of the water, with the P-36s acting as Divebombers while the P-40s strafe the $%^& out of the Japanese.

Roosevelt is screwed. He calls Kimmel and Short and tells them to keep quiet and they will keep their commands. If he removes them, they will demand Court Martials, and without Germany in the War they will pursue the matter. As in late 1944, the Court of Inquiry will return not guilty verdicts because Roosevelt withheld vital intelligence from them, removed most of Kimmel's Tankers and thus greatly restricted the Pacific Fleets mobility, placed the Pacific Fleet in Hawaii as a provocative act, did not send Torpedo nets as requested nor put money in developing a quick torpedo net installation system, did not provide Short or Kimmel with needed search planes, delayed funding for outlying Islands defenses, stripped the fleet of half its anti-air armament, ordering Short to go on sabotage alert, delayed delivery of a B-24 Reconnasance Plane and then sent it with the equipment not set up properly so it could be sent to Wake Island to see if the Japanese were planning on assaulting it, and lastly, forbidding Kimmel and Short from conducting recon to the North by Planes and Ships. Roosevelt does not want this political dynamite to blow up in his face. He was able to suppress this through strong arm tactics in our time line, but it won't work in this time line.

400 hundred tankers and transports head to the Pacific under heavy escort and Wake is relieved. In the process of Wake Island being relieved, Halsey stumbles across the Hiryu and Soryu and attacks. Out of Aviation Fuel and heavy bombs for their planes, Soryu and Hiryu are sitting ducks and are forthwith sent to the bottom of the sea along with their escorts.

With Wake relieved, work is increased on the Atoll to turn it into a submarine and air base. With Radar installed and 40 F4F-3s, four A-20s and later 24 A-20s,along with PBY Patrol Planes, Wake Island serves as a thorn in the Japanese's side. The F4F-3s gain air superiority over 800 miles of ocean. The PBYs chased out all Japanese shipping and submarines. The A-20s render the Japanese bases in the Marshalls impotent. When the American Navy fixes its torpedoes, U.S. Submarines sweep Japanese shipping clear out of the area. Whats even worse for the Japanese is that B-17s, P-40Bs and A-20s are using Wake as a refueling stop before heading to the Phillipines.

Meanwhile in the Phillipines, Surviving P-40 pilots have learned this lesson, getting into a slow turning dogfight with a Zero is a bad ideal, getting into a high speed turning dogfight is an excellent ideal as the P-40 has a 18 mph faster advantage. With this lesson learned the U.S Pilots are rapidly winning the Air War and are even starting to assist the British in Malaya though the imcompetent British leadership still lose Singapore. With Singapore in Japanese hands, B-17s turn their attention to the captured Naval Base and wreck it before resuming their Air offensive against Formosa and adding strikes to the Marianas to their list. 12 B-17s even strike Okinawa. With the arrival of A-20s and B-24s, the Allies sweep the South China Sea of all Japanses shipping.

U.S. Marines sweep the Japanese out of the Dutch East Indies and then relink with the Phillipines. The Allies then assault Formosa and work their way up the Ryuku Chain towards Okinawa. Japan is bombed the crap out of until it surrenders. End of story.
One question.Just what makes Mac Arthur do this,He delayed in OTL nothing has changed to put a stick up his ass to do different.
 
A few things automatically happen. Number One MacArthur orders his B-17s to strike Formosa and just in time as well. Of 500 Japanese Bombers and Fighters on Formosa, some 180 are destroyed along with many pilots. Meanwhile P-40Bs and P-36Ds spot several Japanese ships enroute to Batan Island with the Aircraft Carrier Ryujo in attendance. Ryujo has 21 Kates and 21 Claudes. Needless to say, this force is blown out of the water, with the P-36s acting as Divebombers while the P-40s strafe the $%^& out of the Japanese.
Small problem. By the time of this PoD two thirds of those B-17s and P-40s are already smouldering wrecks.

Roosevelt is screwed. He calls Kimmel and Short and tells them to keep quiet and they will keep their commands. If he removes them, they will demand Court Martials, and without Germany in the War they will pursue the matter. As in late 1944, the Court of Inquiry will return not guilty verdicts because Roosevelt withheld vital intelligence from them, removed most of Kimmel's Tankers and thus greatly restricted the Pacific Fleets mobility, placed the Pacific Fleet in Hawaii as a provocative act, did not send Torpedo nets as requested nor put money in developing a quick torpedo net installation system, did not provide Short or Kimmel with needed search planes, delayed funding for outlying Islands defenses, stripped the fleet of half its anti-air armament, ordering Short to go on sabotage alert, delayed delivery of a B-24 Reconnasance Plane and then sent it with the equipment not set up properly so it could be sent to Wake Island to see if the Japanese were planning on assaulting it, and lastly, forbidding Kimmel and Short from conducting recon to the North by Planes and Ships. Roosevelt does not want this political dynamite to blow up in his face. He was able to suppress this through strong arm tactics in our time line, but it won't work in this time line.
This sounds like you beleive some of those crack pot conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbour.
1. What firm intelligence was there that the Japs were going to attack?
2. Torepdo nets didn't get sent to Pearl because both the upper command and those based there belived it was too shallow for an effective torpedo attack.
3. I havn't heard anything about stripping the AA armourment.
4. A general war alert was sent, if the dimwits at Hawaii decided sabotage was a more major issue than attack then it's their fault.

400 hundred tankers and transports head to the Pacific under heavy escort and Wake is relieved. In the process of Wake Island being relieved, Halsey stumbles across the Hiryu and Soryu and attacks. Out of Aviation Fuel and heavy bombs for their planes, Soryu and Hiryu are sitting ducks and are forthwith sent to the bottom of the sea along with their escorts.
1. "400 Tankers and Transports" is at least an order of magnitude greater than what Wake Island needed.
2. "Heavy Escort" How is this possible? You have three carriers, a handful of cruisers and some destroyers avalible in the Pacific. To redeploy anything from the Atalantic will take several weeks. Given that in OTL Wake fell by late December 1941 it is hence impossible to furnish sufficient escorts and releive the island.

With Wake relieved, work is increased on the Atoll to turn it into a submarine and air base. With Radar installed and 40 F4F-3s, four A-20s and later 24 A-20s,along with PBY Patrol Planes, Wake Island serves as a thorn in the Japanese's side. The F4F-3s gain air superiority over 800 miles of ocean. The PBYs chased out all Japanese shipping and submarines. The A-20s render the Japanese bases in the Marshalls impotent. When the American Navy fixes its torpedoes, U.S. Submarines sweep Japanese shipping clear out of the area. Whats even worse for the Japanese is that B-17s, P-40Bs and A-20s are using Wake as a refueling stop before heading to the Phillipines.[/quote
Yes it can be used as a Sub base and can be used as an airbase. However I don't think it can be developed to the standards you state.

Meanwhile in the Phillipines, Surviving P-40 pilots have learned this lesson, getting into a slow turning dogfight with a Zero is a bad ideal, getting into a high speed turning dogfight is an excellent ideal as the P-40 has a 18 mph faster advantage. With this lesson learned the U.S Pilots are rapidly winning the Air War and are even starting to assist the British in Malaya
How can this happen when most of these aircraft are already burnt out wrecks?
though the imcompetent British leadership still lose Singapore. With Singapore in Japanese hands, B-17s turn their attention to the captured Naval Base and wreck it before resuming their Air offensive against Formosa and adding strikes to the Marianas to their list. 12 B-17s even strike Okinawa. With the arrival of A-20s and B-24s, the Allies sweep the South China Sea of all Japanses shipping.
1. The loss of Singapore did involve some incompetance but not to the degree you suggest.
2. Do you know how ineffective level bombing proved to be? Well I would be suprised if those B-17s can reliably hit Singapore island let alone the naval base.
3. Even with the arrival of light bombers it will still take months to adopt suitable tactics to threatern the Japanese shipping.

U.S. Marines sweep the Japanese out of the Dutch East Indies and then relink with the Phillipines. The Allies then assault Formosa and work their way up the Ryuku Chain towards Okinawa. Japan is bombed the crap out of until it surrenders. End of story.
If by some fluke MacArthur holds the Philipenes do you honestly think the Japanese will attack the Dutch East Indies?
I think not... I mean they have a f*&*ing enemy base right in the middle of their supply line!
 
Cockroach said:
1. "400 Tankers and Transports" is at least an order of magnitude greater than what Wake Island needed.
2. "Heavy Escort" How is this possible? You have three carriers, a handful of cruisers and some destroyers avalible in the Pacific. To redeploy anything from the Atalantic will take several weeks. Given that in OTL Wake fell by late December 1941 it is hence impossible to furnish sufficient escorts and releive the island.
I think Wake could be relieved successfully, if the commanders at Pearl were more aggressive and we had a bit more luck than OTL.
 
I think Wake could be relieved successfully, if the commanders at Pearl were more aggressive and we had a bit more luck than OTL.
I wasn't saying it was impossible... hell if the Yank carriers hadn't been told to withdraw it would have been a 50-50 chance.
What I was saying is that in the scenario proposed by ThomasG he has opted for an impractically large force. A force that will hence move slowly and require a hell of a lot more escorts than was avalible in the Pacific.
 
luakel said:
I think Wake could be relieved successfully, if the commanders at Pearl were more aggressive and we had a bit more luck than OTL.

No way would Japan allow Wake to survive...Wake was very important to thier ring defense. If they had just taken their initial war objectives and built them up, things might have been different. Japan was looking for legitamasy? and respect. The Pacific War would have happened ...
 
Cockroach said:
Small problem. By the time of this PoD two thirds of those B-17s and P-40s are already smouldering wrecks.
It would be near December 8 in Europe at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. So Hitler would deliver the speech from about 4 a.m. in the morning Berlin Time which would be 9:00 p.m. in Washington which would be about 10:00 a.m. Phillipine time. The Japs hit at 12:00 p.m. on the 8th. Unless the starter of this op would like to clarify the time, this is reasonable.


Cockroach said:
This sounds like you beleive some of those crack pot conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbour.
1. What firm intelligence was there that the Japs were going to attack?
2. Torepdo nets didn't get sent to Pearl because both the upper command and those based there belived it was too shallow for an effective torpedo attack.
3. I havn't heard anything about stripping the AA armourment.
4. A general war alert was sent, if the dimwits at Hawaii decided sabotage was a more major issue than attack then it's their fault.
So you dispute a Naval Inquiry which had hundreds of docuements to prove its findings? My friend the conspiracy theories are indeed true. The Japanese did not maintain radio silence, Homer Kisner's and Robert Ogg's docuements have been found and prove that Kimmel was not warned of the Japanese movements.

Next the so call war warning indicated hostile action against the Dutch East Indies and not Pearl. It also told them not to do anything that would alrm the civilian population. Since the Civilian population was all around them, that meant sabotage alert. On November 27, General Short recieved this order from General Marshall.

Critical Situation demands that all precautions be taken immediately against subversive activities within field of investigative responsibilty of war department paren see paragraph thre mid sc thirty dash forty five end paren stop Also desired that you initiate forthwith all additional measures necessary to provide for protection of your establishments comma property comma and equipment against sabotage comma protection of your personnel against subversive propagnda and protection of all activities against espionage stop This does not repeat not mean that any illegal measures are authorisex stop Protective measures should be confined to those essential to security comma avoiding unnecessary publicity alarm stop To ensure speed of transmission identical telegrams are being sent to all air stations but this does not repeat not affect your responsibilty under existing instructions x Adams

This is a public docuement and implies court martial if not carried out.

Next thing The Kimmel Family has freely put Admiral Kimmel's story on the web. Once you read it, you'll either see the truth or continue to hate Kimmel.http://www.rooseveltmyth.com/KimmelStory/


1. "400 Tankers and Transports" is at least an order of magnitude greater than what Wake Island needed.
2. "Heavy Escort" How is this possible? You have three carriers, a handful of cruisers and some destroyers avalible in the Pacific. To redeploy anything from the Atalantic will take several weeks. Given that in OTL Wake fell by late December 1941 it is hence impossible to furnish sufficient escorts and releive the island.
Wrong, my friend Wake fell because Pye called off the Rescue attempt and Commander Cunningham didn't allow a small patrol to scour the Island. He was winning the fight when he surrendered. If the rescue group wasn't called off or Cunningham sent out a patrol, Wake would have held. Also those transports would be in the Dutch East Indies.

Yes it can be used as a Sub base and can be used as an airbase. However I don't think it can be developed to the standards you state.
You be surprised what War time exiengency can do as creative people are finally allow to do what their best at.

How can this happen when most of these aircraft are already burnt out wrecks?
You prescribe to the massive damage myth of Pearl Harbor. That has been disproven by Willmott. A large number of our planes were slavageable. 4 A-20s were r4paired within 23 hours by canabilising the other wrecks.

1. The loss of Singapore did involve some incompetance but not to the degree you suggest.
2. Do you know how ineffective level bombing proved to be? Well I would be suprised if those B-17s can reliably hit Singapore island let alone the naval base.
3. Even with the arrival of light bombers it will still take months to adopt suitable tactics to threatern the Japanese shipping.
1. Wrong again, it was incompetence through and through. The British made stupid mistakes when they should have known better from fighting the Germans. The only division that did well was the Australian division and had their tatics been adopted, Yamashita would not have cracked through.

2. Wrong again. Level bombing is effective, you just have to go low to about 12,000 feet and General Brereton believed in this tactic and would have succeeded. Experience also helps.

3. Wrong again. Merchant ships are not warships and can not manuever like Warships. Also Fighters as shown at Wake Island can wreck transports with hundrend pound bombs.

If by some fluke MacArthur holds the Philipenes do you honestly think the Japanese will attack the Dutch East Indies?
I think not... I mean they have a f*&*ing enemy base right in the middle of their supply line!
Yes, they would as Singapore offers another route though not a very good one. Then again the Japanese are willing to put their forces in impossible situations and we would welcome them doing so. Further with Ryujo, Soryu, and Hiryu out, our carriers will have a wonderful time. Especially when two British Carriers and 4 Carriers from the Atlantic join them. They will have superiority over the Japanese carriers.
 
Cockroach said:
I wasn't saying it was impossible... hell if the Yank carriers hadn't been told to withdraw it would have been a 50-50 chance.
What I was saying is that in the scenario proposed by ThomasG he has opted for an impractically large force. A force that will hence move slowly and require a hell of a lot more escorts than was avalible in the Pacific.

It would have been one hundred percent chance. Soryu and Hiryu were out of bombs and aviation gas.

Sorry for not being clear on those 400 hundred ships. They would be sent to Australia and the Dutch East Indies along with the Atlantic Fleet.
 
ThomasG said:
It would be near December 8 in Europe at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. So Hitler would deliver the speech from about 4 a.m. in the morning Berlin Time which would be 9:00 p.m. in Washington which would be about 10:00 a.m. Phillipine time. The Japs hit at 12:00 p.m. on the 8th. Unless the starter of this op would like to clarify the time, this is reasonable.
Okay so that does seem possible. But as in OTL will still have the MacArthur factor which kept the bomber on the ground until it was too late.

ThomasG said:
So you dispute a Naval Inquiry which had hundreds of docuements to prove its findings? My friend the conspiracy theories are indeed true. The Japanese did not maintain radio silence, Homer Kisner's and Robert Ogg's docuements have been found and prove that Kimmel was not warned of the Japanese movements.
Sorry I havn't read the revelvent source. I was just stating that what you said sounded a bit too much like a conspiracy theory. Now I accept it is entirely possible that various potential warning didn't get properly collated and sent where they were needed but there is a heap of difference between that and the usual conspiracy theory i.e. claims of the President's intention to use a Japanese attack to enter the European war.

ThomasG said:
Next the so call war warning indicated hostile action against the Dutch East Indies and not Pearl. It also told them not to do anything that would alrm the civilian population. Since the Civilian population was all around them, that meant sabotage alert. On November 27, General Short recieved this order from General Marshall.

Critical Situation demands that all precautions be taken immediately against subversive activities within field of investigative responsibilty of war department paren see paragraph thre mid sc thirty dash forty five end paren stop Also desired that you initiate forthwith all additional measures necessary to provide for protection of your establishments comma property comma and equipment against sabotage comma protection of your personnel against subversive propagnda and protection of all activities against espionage stop This does not repeat not mean that any illegal measures are authorisex stop Protective measures should be confined to those essential to security comma avoiding unnecessary publicity alarm stop To ensure speed of transmission identical telegrams are being sent to all air stations but this does not repeat not affect your responsibilty under existing instructions x Adams

This is a public docuement and implies court martial if not carried out.

Next thing The Kimmel Family has freely put Admiral Kimmel's story on the web. Once you read it, you'll either see the truth or continue to hate Kimmel.http://www.rooseveltmyth.com/KimmelStory/
Yes I did phrase it a bit wrongly. Taking precautions against sabotage was a sensible procedure. Althought to only consider that with out thinking about the possibility of attack is rather half-witted.

ThomasG said:
Wrong, my friend Wake fell because Pye called off the Rescue attempt and Commander Cunningham didn't allow a small patrol to scour the Island. He was winning the fight when he surrendered. If the rescue group wasn't called off or Cunningham sent out a patrol, Wake would have held. Also those transports would be in the Dutch East Indies.
It was under a state of seige. In OTL it was lost when the carriers withdrew. Having cleared up your issue about the number of transports etc. (which presumably would be divided into a number of different convoys over two or three months) your suggestion then becomes sensible. However my initial reply was based on your implication of 400 transports escorted by all that remained of the Pacific fleet.

You be surprised what War time exiengency can do as creative people are finally allow to do what their best at.
True, but we are talking about a small atoll. There is simply not sufficient space for all the repair facilities etc. needed to maintin a strong Submarine force. we run into the same problem with reguards to basing that many more aircraft there.

ThomasG said:
You prescribe to the massive damage myth of Pearl Harbor. That has been disproven by Willmott. A large number of our planes were slavageable. 4 A-20s were r4paired within 23 hours by canabilising the other wrecks.
I had assumed your statement was refering to the aircraft already in the Philipenes.

1. Wrong again, it was incompetence through and through. The British made stupid mistakes when they should have known better from fighting the Germans. The only division that did well was the Australian division and had their tatics been adopted, Yamashita would not have cracked through.
Yes there was incompetance such as the premature abandonment of some of the Northern airfields or the lack of fixed defences in Singapore itself. However the fighting in Malaya genrally showed a decent degree of competance -especially considering most units were distinctly second-line.
As for the statement that the 8th division AIF sucesfully adapted... well beleive me, I am an Australian and would usually trumpet our military triumphs from the roof top... but I find there is a hell of a difference between pulling off four or five good ambushes and finding a tactic that would actually stop the Japs dead in their tracks. On the question on if Yamashita would have cracked or not... well it is simply moot, I mean in OTL by the end of the Seige of Singapore his troops were running short of ammo... now if General Percival had managed to orginse a counter attack and recapture the resevoirs then Yamashita and co would have been in trouble.

2. Wrong again. Level bombing is effective, you just have to go low to about 12,000 feet and General Brereton believed in this tactic and would have succeeded. Experience also helps.
By 1944 when you are talking about raid with hundreds of bombers then yes. Or if you are aiming for a large city rather than a factory or naval base then yes. But in the scenario we are talking about we will (initally at least and probably for a good year or two) see raids by at most one or two squadrons of bombers... now direct this over the South China Sea flying from the Philipenes or from Java and aim for a couple of hundred acre naval base... I doubts it sill prove that effective.

3. Wrong again. Merchant ships are not warships and can not manuever like Warships. Also Fighters as shown at Wake Island can wreck transports with hundrend pound bombs.
True but we are starting with bomber crews who in all probability have been trained for level bombing... now give them the time to try and refine skip bombing and as in OTL they will be deadly. However how long will that take? In OTL the first large scale use of that tactic I can recall occured during the Battle of the Bismark Sea... 12 months after the start of the war.

Yes, they would as Singapore offers another route though not a very good one. Then again the Japanese are willing to put their forces in impossible situations and we would welcome them doing so. Further with Ryujo, Soryu, and Hiryu out, our carriers will have a wonderful time. Especially when two British Carriers and 4 Carriers from the Atlantic join them. They will have superiority over the Japanese carriers.
For invading yes... but remember the Japs primary interest in taking the East Indies was to nick oil, metals, rubber, etc. and ship it back to Japan. In this case the problem of an enemy base in the middle of the supply route is an even more major problem.
 
ThomasG said:
It would be near December 8 in Europe at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. So Hitler would deliver the speech from about 4 a.m. in the morning Berlin Time which would be 9:00 p.m. in Washington which would be about 10:00 a.m. Phillipine time. The Japs hit at 12:00 p.m. on the 8th. Unless the starter of this op would like to clarify the time, this is reasonable.
Okay so that does seem possible. But as in OTL will still have the MacArthur factor which kept the bomber on the ground until it was too late.

ThomasG said:
So you dispute a Naval Inquiry which had hundreds of docuements to prove its findings? My friend the conspiracy theories are indeed true. The Japanese did not maintain radio silence, Homer Kisner's and Robert Ogg's docuements have been found and prove that Kimmel was not warned of the Japanese movements.
Sorry I havn't read the revelvent source. I was just stating that what you said sounded a bit too much like a conspiracy theory. Now I accept it is entirely possible that various potential warning didn't get properly collated and sent where they were needed but there is a heap of difference between that and the usual conspiracy theory i.e. claims of the President's intention to use a Japanese attack to enter the European war.

ThomasG said:
Next the so call war warning indicated hostile action against the Dutch East Indies and not Pearl. It also told them not to do anything that would alrm the civilian population. Since the Civilian population was all around them, that meant sabotage alert. On November 27, General Short recieved this order from General Marshall.

Critical Situation demands that all precautions be taken immediately against subversive activities within field of investigative responsibilty of war department paren see paragraph thre mid sc thirty dash forty five end paren stop Also desired that you initiate forthwith all additional measures necessary to provide for protection of your establishments comma property comma and equipment against sabotage comma protection of your personnel against subversive propagnda and protection of all activities against espionage stop This does not repeat not mean that any illegal measures are authorisex stop Protective measures should be confined to those essential to security comma avoiding unnecessary publicity alarm stop To ensure speed of transmission identical telegrams are being sent to all air stations but this does not repeat not affect your responsibilty under existing instructions x Adams

This is a public docuement and implies court martial if not carried out.

Next thing The Kimmel Family has freely put Admiral Kimmel's story on the web. Once you read it, you'll either see the truth or continue to hate Kimmel.http://www.rooseveltmyth.com/KimmelStory/
Yes I did phrase it a bit wrongly. Taking precautions against sabotage was a sensible procedure. Althought to only consider that with out thinking about the possibility of attack is rather half-witted.

ThomasG said:
Wrong, my friend Wake fell because Pye called off the Rescue attempt and Commander Cunningham didn't allow a small patrol to scour the Island. He was winning the fight when he surrendered. If the rescue group wasn't called off or Cunningham sent out a patrol, Wake would have held. Also those transports would be in the Dutch East Indies.
It was under a state of seige. In OTL it was lost when the carriers withdrew. Having cleared up your issue about the number of transports etc. (which presumably would be divided into a number of different convoys over two or three months) your suggestion then becomes sensible. However my initial reply was based on your implication of 400 transports escorted by all that remained of the Pacific fleet.

You be surprised what War time exiengency can do as creative people are finally allow to do what their best at.
True, but we are talking about a small atoll. There is simply not sufficient space for all the repair facilities etc. needed to maintin a strong Submarine force. we run into the same problem with reguards to basing that many more aircraft there.

ThomasG said:
You prescribe to the massive damage myth of Pearl Harbor. That has been disproven by Willmott. A large number of our planes were slavageable. 4 A-20s were r4paired within 23 hours by canabilising the other wrecks.
I had assumed your statement was refering to the aircraft already in the Philipenes.

1. Wrong again, it was incompetence through and through. The British made stupid mistakes when they should have known better from fighting the Germans. The only division that did well was the Australian division and had their tatics been adopted, Yamashita would not have cracked through.
Yes there was incompetance such as the premature abandonment of some of the Northern airfields or the lack of fixed defences in Singapore itself. However the fighting in Malaya genrally showed a decent degree of competance -especially considering most units were distinctly second-line.
As for the statement that the 8th division AIF sucesfully adapted... well beleive me, I am an Australian and would usually trumpet our military triumphs from the roof top... but I find there is a hell of a difference between pulling off four or five good ambushes and finding a tactic that would actually stop the Japs dead in their tracks. On the question on if Yamashita would have cracked or not... well it is simply moot, I mean in OTL by the end of the Seige of Singapore his troops were running short of ammo... now if General Percival had managed to orginse a counter attack and recapture the resevoirs then Yamashita and co would have been in trouble.

2. Wrong again. Level bombing is effective, you just have to go low to about 12,000 feet and General Brereton believed in this tactic and would have succeeded. Experience also helps.
By 1944 when you are talking about raid with hundreds of bombers then yes. Or if you are aiming for a large city rather than a factory or naval base then yes. But in the scenario we are talking about we will (initally at least and probably for a good year or two) see raids by at most one or two squadrons of bombers... now direct this over the South China Sea flying from the Philipenes or from Java and aim for a couple of hundred acre naval base... I doubts it sill prove that effective.

3. Wrong again. Merchant ships are not warships and can not manuever like Warships. Also Fighters as shown at Wake Island can wreck transports with hundrend pound bombs.
True but we are starting with bomber crews who in all probability have been trained for level bombing... now give them the time to try and refine skip bombing and as in OTL they will be deadly. However how long will that take? In OTL the first large scale use of that tactic I can recall occured during the Battle of the Bismark Sea... 12 months after the start of the war.

Yes, they would as Singapore offers another route though not a very good one. Then again the Japanese are willing to put their forces in impossible situations and we would welcome them doing so. Further with Ryujo, Soryu, and Hiryu out, our carriers will have a wonderful time. Especially when two British Carriers and 4 Carriers from the Atlantic join them. They will have superiority over the Japanese carriers.
For invading yes... but remember the Japs primary interest in taking the East Indies was to nick oil, metals, rubber, etc. and ship it back to Japan. In this case the problem of an enemy base in the middle of the supply route is an even more major problem.
 
Cockroach said:
Okay so that does seem possible. But as in OTL will still have the MacArthur factor which kept the bomber on the ground until it was too late.

MacArthur was paid by the Phillipine Government not to attack and the payment was authorized by Roosevelt as it was illegal for American Generals to except payments from forgein governments. This is a public docuement.


Sorry I havn't read the revelvent source. I was just stating that what you said sounded a bit too much like a conspiracy theory. Now I accept it is entirely possible that various potential warning didn't get properly collated and sent where they were needed but there is a heap of difference between that and the usual conspiracy theory i.e. claims of the President's intention to use a Japanese attack to enter the European war.

Unfortunately for you, the conpiracy theories are increasingling being found to be correct. Roosevelt deliberately provoked Japan to attack by cutting off oil and sending Two Cruisers to violate Japanese territorial waters, ordering several gunboats to attack the Japanese in the hopes they would be sunk. I can go on. All is backed by the public record. Simply head down to the national archive and dig.

Yes I did phrase it a bit wrongly. Taking precautions against sabotage was a sensible procedure. Althought to only consider that with out thinking about the possibility of attack is rather half-witted.

Except, Short had no choice in the matter. He could not alarm the civilian population which surrounded his bases and if he did he would have been court martialed.

It was under a state of seige. In OTL it was lost when the carriers withdrew.

It was lost because Cunningham thought he was losing. He was actually winning and the Wilke's Island detachment was starting to come ashore on Wake to help clear out main Island. Peale was also sending a relief team. None of the batteries had been overrun. If the Japanese tried a follow up attack in the Morning they would have been slaughtered.


True, but we are talking about a small atoll. There is simply not sufficient space for all the repair facilities etc. needed to maintin a strong Submarine force. we run into the same problem with reguards to basing that many more aircraft there.

Tarawa is also a small atoll. Yet it became a powerful Airbase. Wake would become the same. It already had a nearly mile long Runway and an additional mile of runway was planned. Tarawa was smashed to hell and took a month to build a suitable Airfield. Wake isn't smashed, its still operational and with the Relief Force carrying a Radar set, more ammo, more planes, and Marines, Wake will hold indefinitely and serve as a Base for B-17s and B-24s plus P-40Bs to fly to Mindanao or to the Dutch East Indies. Also mentioned earlier, Soryu and Hiryu are out of Aviation Fuel and Bombs and will probaly be sunk.

Yes there was incompetance such as the premature abandonment of some of the Northern airfields or the lack of fixed defences in Singapore itself. However the fighting in Malaya genrally showed a decent degree of competance -especially considering most units were distinctly second-line.
As for the statement that the 8th division AIF sucesfully adapted... well beleive me, I am an Australian and would usually trumpet our military triumphs from the roof top... but I find there is a hell of a difference between pulling off four or five good ambushes and finding a tactic that would actually stop the Japs dead in their tracks. On the question on if Yamashita would have cracked or not... well it is simply moot, I mean in OTL by the end of the Seige of Singapore his troops were running short of ammo... now if General Percival had managed to orginse a counter attack and recapture the resevoirs then Yamashita and co would have been in trouble.

Its not the Ambushes but the willingness to go into the Jungle and duke it out. With the Phillipine Airforce still operational, Singapore lasts awhile longer as B-17s fly low at about 12,000 feet and level the main trusts and force the Japanese into the Jungles completely which slows down their advance. But, Percival was a moron and coward trying to pretend to be brave. If hwasn't going to fight in the Jungle, he should have set up a defense line. He tried a compromise and his men got cut up and destroyed in detail.


By 1944 when you are talking about raid with hundreds of bombers then yes. Or if you are aiming for a large city rather than a factory or naval base then yes. But in the scenario we are talking about we will (initally at least and probably for a good year or two) see raids by at most one or two squadrons of bombers... now direct this over the South China Sea flying from the Philipenes or from Java and aim for a couple of hundred acre naval base... I doubts it sill prove that effective.

Incorrect. We don't have a Europe First policy here and hundreds of bombers earmarked for Britain are entering the Pacific. Also Brereton like Doolittle believes in going low which greatly increases accuracy and since the Japanese don't have AA comparable to the Germans, they can risk it. The Norden Bomb site is very accurate at 12,000 feet and the bombs will be only in the 12 feet error margin as opposed to the 40 feet error at 25,000 feet. So this is defintely doable. And when A-20s start arriving, Singapore gets shut down for good.


True but we are starting with bomber crews who in all probability have been trained for level bombing... now give them the time to try and refine skip bombing and as in OTL they will be deadly. However how long will that take? In OTL the first large scale use of that tactic I can recall occured during the Battle of the Bismark Sea... 12 months after the start of the war.

Ahh, but Bombers don't need to concern themselves with that. Fighters as shown at Wake can put Transports out of action. Plus A-20s will take over that role. Being armed with 20mm cannons and some armed with 37mm cannons will soon arrive along with P-38s and P-39s. The big boys can concentrate on Ground Targets. And if the Big Boys need to enter all they have to do is drop low as some people had been talking about for years. Bismark Sea wasn't about new tactics, but use of a tactic that had been rejected 4 years ago.


For invading yes... but remember the Japs primary interest in taking the East Indies was to nick oil, metals, rubber, etc. and ship it back to Japan. In this case the problem of an enemy base in the middle of the supply route is an even more major problem.

True, but they can ship it overland, fly it, or run it through under cover of night at sea.
 

wormyguy

Banned
The Japanese do a bluff (quite plausible in the context of Japanese history.) They announce that the war mongering clique has been overthrown (Tojo and various selected scapegoats have "committed suicide.") Yamashita, recalled from virtual exile, acts as Japanese representative. He tells the US that they've done all that was asked, Japan is now a democracy and will withdraw from the Asian mainland apart from Korea (in practise Japan will act as the US gendarme in Asia).If this isn't sufficient, Japan will fight on. It'll lose, but will bring down Asia. Asia becomes an American informal empire.
Why on earth would Japan surrender while they were "winning?"

EDIT: My 666th post, and I completely missed it! :(
 
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Yet again, we've had this before. Hitler makes offers of a peace to Britain on the basis of the status quo. If, after that, Roosevelt had tried to give help to Britain
Wait, now. This presumes a) Winston accepts, which is ASB, IMO & b) Japan doesn't attack British colonies in Asia, which is unlikely at best. So aid to Britain still happens. It's not direct aid against Germany, but it's aid. And if FDR doesn't drop Britain like a hot rock, what do you suppose the odds are of Hitler pulling a Hitler:p & DoW the U.S. anyhow? Don't forget, Hitler wanted war with the U.S. This looks lunatic (OK, do not adjust your set, it is...:p), but as a POD, you've got to change Hitler's fundamental nature somehow, or at least get him to listen to his advisors for a change (see "change fundamental nature"), 'cause German intel prepared a report prewar warning just exactly how dangerous the U.S. (& Britain) were liable to be, & Hitler (being Hitler...) ignored it. The report was dead right, & it bit him.
1. What firm intelligence was there that the Japs were going to attack?
None. Everywhere but Pearl was indicated. Everybody in the U.S. establishment felt Hawaii was safely out of reach of Japan.
2. Torepdo nets didn't get sent to Pearl because both the upper command and those based there belived it was too shallow for an effective torpedo attack.
Correct. It also inhibited the ability of the Fleet to operate.
3. I havn't heard anything about stripping the AA armourment.
Me, neither.
4. A general war alert was sent, if the dimwits at Hawaii decided sabotage was a more major issue than attack then it's their fault.
Except, Short had no choice in the matter. He could not alarm the civilian population
Well, no. Nobody expected an attack, as noted. Short told DC what he was doing. (Not as clearly as he should have, but...) Nobody in DC, who had far better intel than Kimmel & Short, at any time said, "The Japanese are going to attack you." (contrary to what no less than Norman Schwartzkopf thinks). If DC thought Short's preparations were wrong, they should d*mn well have said so. Not Kimmel & Short's fault...

Now, Short didn't think defense of the fleet was his responsibility, when it expressly was, didn't demand from DC he have adequate resources to make a defense, & didn't take adequate recce measures with the a/c he had, & so didn't detect the Kido Butai before it launched. That was his fault.
2. Do you know how ineffective level bombing proved to be? Well I would be suprised if those B-17s can reliably hit Singapore island let alone the naval base.
Agreed.
If by some fluke MacArthur holds the Philipenes do you honestly think the Japanese will attack the Dutch East Indies?
Actually, the DEI op was already underway. Conquest of the P.I. was to protect the SLOCs in the longer term.
I think Wake could be relieved successfully, if the commanders at Pearl were more aggressive and we had a bit more luck than OTL.
Wrong, my friend Wake fell because Pye called off the Rescue attempt and Commander Cunningham didn't allow a small patrol to scour the Island. He was winning the fight when he surrendered. If the rescue group wasn't called off or Cunningham sent out a patrol, Wake would have held. Also those transports would be in the Dutch East Indies.
Absolutely. IMO, Pye lost his nerve. (Of course, there was a chance of an early "Coral Sea", & PacFleet really couldn't afford CV losses in 12/41...
It would have been one hundred percent chance. Soryu and Hiryu were out of bombs and aviation gas.
This appears to presume they weren't replenished before being detailed to Wake, & I simply don't believe even IJN was that stupid. How were they to provide assistance, which was why they were sent, otherwise?
It would be near December 8 in Europe at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. So Hitler would deliver the speech from about 4 a.m. in the morning Berlin Time which would be 9:00 p.m. in Washington which would be about 10:00 a.m. Phillipine time.
Forget what time it was in Berlin. The big question is why MacArthur didn't obey his express orders from DC at 05.30. He knew Hawaii had been attacked, & he had express, explicit orders to "Execute Rainbow 5". He did nothing, & prevented (or allowed Sutherland to prevent) Brereton from sending his B-17s against Formosa while the Japanese were fogged in!
2. Wrong again. Level bombing is effective, you just have to go low to about 12,000 feet and General Brereton believed in this tactic and would have succeeded. Experience also helps.
Low-altitude bombing is completely contrary to all USAAF's peacetime training & doctrine... Certainly B-17s would not be bombing ships successfully (as OTL experience through Midway, 6/6/42, clearly demonstrates).
3. Wrong again. Merchant ships are not warships and can not manuever like Warships.
They can easily avoid bombing from high altitude, & did.
Also Fighters as shown at Wake Island can wreck transports with hundrend pound bombs.
This presumes AAF figured it out (which is a bit dubious), the a/c & bombs were there, & the a/c were, in fact, outfitted for any kind of bombing; both the latter 2 points I'm frankly unsure of.
Further with Ryujo, Soryu, and Hiryu out, our carriers will have a wonderful time.
Want to bet? You've taken out 1 jeep CV & 2 fleet CVs. I seriously doubt the inexperienced USN aviators would have fared well enough to prevent U.S. losses, so we can expect Lex, at least, is sunk, & probably Yorktown damaged, maybe sunk also.
Especially when two British Carriers and 4 Carriers from the Atlantic join them.
And the Brits will simply strip all their other forces of CVs why, exactly? Also, why exactly will the U.S. strip the Atlantic Fleet? Moreover, do you really think the subsequent cancellation of ferry missions of fighters to Malta (which this presumes) will have no effects? I will agree you might pull 3 USN CVs, & i would leave Ranger for ferry ops, since she was a bit small & slow for fleet ops, plus Indom & Hermes, in theatre OTL. Unless you introduce MACs earlier (which I would have done before 7/12/41...), you can free more CVs.
My friend the conspiracy theories are indeed true. The Japanese did not maintain radio silence, Homer Kisner's and Robert Ogg's docuements have been found and prove that Kimmel was not warned of the Japanese movements.
My Unfortunately for you, the conpiracy theories are increasingling being found to be correct. Roosevelt deliberately provoked Japan to attack by cutting off oil and sending Two Cruisers to violate Japanese territorial waters, ordering several gunboats to attack the Japanese in the hopes they would be sunk.
Preposterous. FDR & the USG generally was doing their damndest to avoid war with Japan, knowing if there was war in the Pacific it would reduce aid to Britain. The oil embargo was increased by low-level officials at State (for reasons I frankly don't recall), contrary to FDR's main objective, which was, in effect, give the Japanese a smack to get their attention & stop mauling the Chinese.
MacArthur was paid by the Phillipine Government not to attack and the payment was authorized by Roosevelt
Paid, yes. Authorized?
 
pacifichistorian, well said.


Cockroach, good try but anyone who still believes in the anti-shipping capacity of B-17s, especially in small numbers, at this date is not amenable to reason or the facts.


ThomasG, I feel the need to point out that your posts in general have more questionable comments and outright lies than facts in them, and that's after I ignore your conspiracy beliefs as irrelevant.

FACT: MacArthur was not only in command of the American AND Philipine forces on December 7, 1941 but he spent several years previously working only for the Philipines and not the US. FDR had to allow him back on active duty in the US Army.

FACT: MacArthur knew war was underway yet allowed the air contingent to be caught on the ground, although it is fair to note that 35 B-17s and less than 200 other planes, many of them outdated, wouldn't have lasted long against Japan. In fact, half of his air force DID survive the Japanese attack, including more than a third of his B-17s, and didn't achieve much. Unless you can explain why less than 100 planes would make a vital difference...

FACT: Short and Kimmel failed in their responsibilities. The killer was their admission that they made no serious effort to patrol because they felt they lacked sufficient aircraft to do so yet it became clear that air patrol assets available to them were far greater than they originally admitted, that their plan assumed equal use of patrols in all directions(not too many Japanese ships in the east), and that they operated under the fallacy that it was better to have no patrols than what they consider an inadequate number.

FACT: The state of security under Kimmel and Short is best summed up by the fact that one squadron of Zeros arrived early and circled over Pearl Harbor in broad daylight for 20 minutes without the alarm being sound.

FACT: The idea that Pearl Harbor's air contingent did not take heavy losses because, through cannibalization of other aircraft, 4 planes were back in service in 24 hours is beyond credibility.

FACT: On Wake Cunningham might have held out if not for the collapse of communications on Wake. Other than that...the IJN carriers were not helpless and there was no possibility of a mere 60 planes, if it even arrived, dominating an 800 mile area around Wake. ONE of Japan's six carriers would have outnumbered that entire contingent. Pye's relief force brought less than 200 marines, one squadron of 12 outdated fighters and, ironically, was to withdraw most of the (civilian) construction force needed to build up Wake as a base.
 
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