1941 - Britain and Japan vs USA - How long until the USA wins?

If someone wants to make a better planned out scenario than the one I wrote, they're free. I was just suggesting a general outline, and knew it wasn't 100% accurate.
It’s a pretty solid effort given the fairly impossible outline in the OP, and I don’t think anyone is going to come up with anything better, other than perhaps a very long series of miscommunications, misinterpretations, bad ideas, lost memos etc etc that culminate in people in London looking at each other and going “OMG! They really did it. This is so terrible, how on earth did we end up in this situation?”.
The whole premise requires a sort of Mussolini “back to glory” approach with either buy-in from a whole stack of people who know just how hard & expensive it is to run an actual empire , or else a wholesale replacement of the political class in london with swivel-eyed zealots who even Churchill would regard as being dangerously OTT imperialists.
 
The UK owed the US a huge war debt in dollar loans from WW I. The US allowed the UK to defer payment on many of these loans. All the U.S. has to do to win is demand the UK pay of these loans at original schedule in dollars. The U.K. then is forced to buy the dollars to pay these loans or face a total run on the Pound. If the UK buys dollars, interest rates in the UK skyrocket to pay for the dollars strangling the economy. If the UK defaults, it becomes a financial pariah for not honoring its obligations. The market reflects this. People dump their Pound denominated bonds (stocks, etc.), and the Pound collapses and hyper-inflation sets. Either the way, the UK economy crashes.

The US wins without firing a shot.

This whole scenario is utterly ASB and reads like a weird Hearts of Iron scenario. Then again, so is what you have written. If a country is planning war against another, they are hardly going to repay loans are they? And once at war, no one is going to raise an eyebrow over the fact they defaulted.
 
Great timeline there @Saint_007
Thanks. It could use some more work; I'll hopefully post a potential revision soon.
Reasonable to point out that Italy might bring the Nazis to war with the imperials.

So instead Italy stays allied with France in the entente after ww1
At which point, WW2 itself is almost entirely butterflied away. Germany's Anchluss of Austria was only possible because the Italians were content to do nothing. Prior to that, Mussolini and Hitler were at the loggerheads over who controls Austria, something they nearly had a fight over had the two not joined forces in the Berlin-Rome Axis. With Germany forced to stand down, its standing would be harmed and it would need a more careful approach to expansion. It would be unlikely Hitler would have gotten as far as he did without Italian support, not unless Italy pulled a massive "head in the sand" political stance.
Italy, France and Poland are the entente. I presume that Nazi Germany can sweep through Italy as they did France. It'll help keep things on schedule regarding Barbarossa.. Perhaps Spain joins the axis after to try to take Italian and French colonies.
Actually, that's not going to be at all easy. While the Italian Army was the laughingstock of WW2, that was mostly due to lack of sufficient training and competent officers due to the massive bloating Mussolini had subjected it to in the interwar period, Italian terrain is going to be a nightmare for armor. Germany must cross the Alps, defended by some of the most surprisingly competent mountain troops in the world, the Italian Alpini. While the rich Po river valley isn't too far off from Austria, you have to cross some truly brutal rough terrain to get there, and unlike Northern France, a blitzkrieg would be counterproductive, if not a complete failure.

Admittedly, there are other ways; Germany managed to wrest control of Albania and Greece from Greek forces rather swiftly and brutally, despite them being some pretty rough mountain terrain that would favor defenders. Once they manage to get through, they can take the Po river valley, then work their way down the Appenine mountains - but it would not be easy, not by a long shot, unless Italy surrenders once they get through the northern mountains.
 

Deleted member 94680

An Anglo-Japanese Alliance in the 20s/30s is more likely to be aimed at Russia and China whilst being hostile to America. As others have pointed out, the Empire removes Japan’s weakness for oil and strategic materials from OTL.

The only real chance A-J has is to build up a lead in ships and planes with infantry doctrine improving due to combat in Russia/China and hope the Americans remain isolationist until it’s too late.
 
How in gods name does Canada agree to go along with this and not send a letter to London saying in short "That's a nice plan, but you'll kindly be doing it without us." They know that if the plan goes south, which is entirely possible, that once America gets her feet under her, they will be the first ones to die, and not the policy makers in England. And literally nothing will be able to stop it. And without Canada, it becomes a Naval war... and we all know there is only one way that will end. With Hellcats flying over London and Tokyo. Once it becomes clear that Japan and Britain are planning to attack the US, the Two Oceans Fleet act is passed, and the aggressors have two to three years max to do anything but lose inevitably. Better hope they're ready for war by that point and not in the midst of their own buildups.
 
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British carrier aircraft where are inferior to those the Americans flew especially early in the war.
Although it might be humorous to see a spitfire or a hurricane try to shoot down a B-17 using only eight 30 caliber machine guns.
 

Deleted member 94680

How in gods name does Canada agree to go along with this and not send a letter to London saying in short "That's a nice plan, but you'll kindly be doing it without us." They know that if the plan goes south, which is entirely possible, that once America gets her feet under her, they will be the first ones to die, and not the policy makers in England. And literally nothing will be able to stop it. And without Canada, it becomes a Naval war... and we all know there is only one way that will end. With Hellcats flying over London and Tokyo. Once it becomes clear that Japan and Britain are planning to attack the US, the Two Oceans Fleet act is passed, and the aggressors have two to three years max to do anything but lose inevitably. Better hope they're ready for war by that point and not in the midst of their own buildups.

OTL Canadian Army officers drew up (ridiculously optimistic) plans to invade America in the case of American aggression, so not all Canadians were desperate to avoid war.
 
Germany must cross the Alps, defended by some of the most surprisingly competent mountain troops in the world, the Italian Alpini. While the rich Po river valley isn't too far off from Austria, you have to cross some truly brutal rough terrain to get there, and unlike Northern France, a blitzkrieg would be counterproductive, if not a complete failure.

And Italy spent a lot of money on making a sorta Maginot Line strongpoints along the Border passes
 
British carrier aircraft where are inferior to those the Americans flew especially early in the war.
Although it might be humorous to see a spitfire or a hurricane try to shoot down a B-17 using only eight 30 caliber machine guns.
Could be done.
But much of their fighter strength was in Gladiators.

Can perfidious Albion trust the Mustache not to attack while on their Grand Plan to attack the USA bogs down?
 
American industrial heartland is within range of RAF heavies from British holding in N America. The Royal Navy can hit American shipping and bases from Newfoundland etc, and the Americans have no equivalent capability.

The focus of American operations would be to try and evict the British from N America....the Phillipines, Gaum and even possibly Hawaii are write offs.

1000 bomber raids againt the North Eastern population centers? Instead of Hamburg, Colonge, Essen and Dresdan, we get Detroit, New York, Chicago and Philadelphia?


You know, betting againt the Royal Navy is usually a very bad idea.
You mean the RAF operating out of Canada? Canada is an independent country prior to WWII. Canada would not be that insane.

If Britain attacks the US mainland its over for Britain as an independent country. Operation Olympic works in the Atlantic too.
 
OTL Canadian Army officers drew up (ridiculously optimistic) plans to invade America in the case of American aggression, so not all Canadians were desperate to avoid war.
Military planners make plans all the time. They will be the ones most keen to avoid a war as they see up close and personal how badly they will be obliterated.
 
Military planners make plans all the time. They will be the ones most keen to avoid a war as they see up close and personal how badly they will be obliterated.

Of course. Any military planner has contingency plans for just about any scenario, no matter how far-fetched. It's what they are paid for. Supposedly there are plans for planetary defense against extra-terrestrials, and other plans for the zombie apocalypse. Heck, the US military has a contingency plan that addresses the possibility of an attempted takeover of the United States of America by the Girl Scouts
 
This whole scenario is utterly ASB and reads like a weird Hearts of Iron scenario. Then again, so is what you have written. If a country is planning war against another, they are hardly going to repay loans are they? And once at war, no one is going to raise an eyebrow over the fact they defaulted.
If they're doing as you suggest then the default will be before the war starts, meaning collapse of the pound while Britain’s trying to get ready to fight a war against the US.
 
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You mean the RAF operating out of Canada? Canada is an independent country prior to WWII. Canada would not be that insane.

If Britain attacks the US mainland its over for Britain as an independent country. Operation Olympic works in the Atlantic too.
Canada is a target in any war of the US v UK.

And, Britain in not Japan. Its the literal Evil Empire. This is not the Pacific War. Its 1812 on a Grand scale.
 
Canada is a target in any war of the US v UK.

And, Britain in not Japan. Its the literal Evil Empire. This is not the Pacific War. Its 1812 on a Grand scale.
Can you clarify?
*Canada is an independent country at the time of the scenario. Its also a country that is keenly aware of how strong the US is, and has nothing to gain from supporting the UK here.
*1812 on grand scale? Can you clarify that?
 

Deleted member 94680

Military planners make plans all the time. They will be the ones most keen to avoid a war as they see up close and personal how badly they will be obliterated.

Not sure that fits the individual in question, but I know what you mean. Also, the same can be said for the Americans and their various War Plan Red iterations, surely?

The plans were roundly rejected by the British/Canadians OTL, but I made the point to illustrate that War with America wasn’t universally unpopular. There were still those (a small cadre, maybe) above the 49th parallel that were Empire Loyalists first and North Americans second.

OTL, such as they existed, British plans pretty much ran to hit-and-run on the Eastern Seaboard, commerce warfare and attacks on American possessions in the East Indies. The ‘assumption’ was that Canada, when lost (this was widely accepted as unavoidable), would be traded back for the Philippines or such in the resultant Treaties.
 

Deleted member 94680

Can you clarify?
*Canada is an independent country at the time of the scenario. Its also a country that is keenly aware of how strong the US is, and has nothing to gain from supporting the UK here.
*1812 on grand scale? Can you clarify that?

Canada wasn’t truly independent until the Statute of Westminster in 1931. So given the OP, there is a window where the Canadians are subjects of a Dominion and technically under Britain’s rule.
 
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