1939 War declared on both Germany and Soviet Union.

I was under the impression he supplied both oil and grain.

"Forcing a negotiated peace with Britain". Not strictly grammatical, but that's why I clarified with *nationalism*. Stalin did indeed give Hitler a cornucopia of vital supplies. I think we all know that I'm fond of Russia, but that of course means that I hate Stalin.

Anyway, I may as well get in with this before Eurofed comes back...

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air! We shall defend our island... whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the field, and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills... we shall nevah surrendah!
 
Meh, you dont subdue Britain

Correct. :p

Less facetiously, you're right that Britain is very difficult to defeat in WW2 because nobody has the necessary resources to break our lines of supply across the Atlantic. I don't see how a Soviet-German alliance could really change this. The Soviets are obviously not going to direct their air and naval resources against Great Britain. What's in it for them? Casualties, that's what, which means less air assets to defend against Germany, especially if the Red Air Force is sitting in French bases when Barbarossa hits...

So the Soviets can, realistically speaking, invade Iran (in which case we'll be hard-pressed to stop them logistically, and probably won't try very hard) and from there cross over into Iraq, quite possibly in cahoots with anti-British factions there. If they really feel like expending a lot of effort on a liability, they could also invade Afghanistan, in which case they'll probably "win" that dubious prize in the end. They's also probably menace Turkey. Invade Turkey is not an easy job, especially since Germany aint gonna let Russians into Bulgaria, but with Britain and Russia at war and Britain thus doubtlessly ready to back up our gurantee, I don't see Turkey giving in easily. The Soviets then have to face a credible enemy across a miountain frontier with no strategic targets for hundreds of miles...

Beyond that, there's not much else a-doing. After getting what they want in these traditional Russian zones of interest, the Soviets will probably start thinking about how to extricate themselves from an unwanted conflict. We can only hope Britain will be willing to listen...
 
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I Blame Communism;3017335[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GghCs_C65v0&feature=fvw" said:
We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air! We shall defend our island... whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the field, and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills... we shall nevah surrendah! [/URL]

Only Maiden could have Churchill opening for them...

Unfortunately whilst he would never surrender the government that would replace him might.
 

Eurofed

Banned
The Soviets are obviously not going to direct their air and naval resources against Great Britain. What's in it for them? Casualties, that's what, which means less air assets to defend against Germany, especially if the Red Air Force is sitting in French bases when Barbarossa hits...

You say it a lot, but to me it seems much more British wishful thinking than anything else. What's in taking part in BoB for the Soviets ? Well, for once they keep their ally happy by showing serious and productive committment at hitting the common enemy, and not letting their otherwise estranged ally do all the heavy lifting, in a way that does not tax Soviet military resources very much. So they have to deploy some of their air assets to France ? Well, it's not like Soviet war effort is going to have much else to do, after the Middle East is conquered, besides replacing those planes and pilots. Of course, the Soviets might also keep pushing towards India, but they would do it for their own interests, since this is an area they coveted as well. As for Turkey, I do not expect it is going to last very much, after the Germans attack it from the west, the Soviets from the north and east, and both from the south.

If they really feel like expending a lot of effort on a liability, they could also invade Afghanistan, in which case they'll probably "win" that dubious prize in the end.

Afghanistan is also the door to India.

They's also probably menace Turkey. Invade Turkey is not an easy job, especially since Germany aint gonna let Russians into Bulgaria, but with Britain and Russia at war and Britain thus doubtlessly ready to back up our gurantee, I don't see Turkey giving in easily. The Soviets then have to face a credible enemy across a miountain frontier with no strategic targets for hundreds of miles...

Germany can easily hit Turkey itself from Bulgaria. It's not like they are not going to have spare troops, after France and the British Middle East are done with. Germany from Bulgaria, Russia from Caucasus and Iran-Iraq, both from Syria. How long is Turkey going to last ?
 
You say it a lot, but to me it seems much more British wishful thinking than anything else. What's in taking part in BoB for the Soviets ? Well, for once they keep their ally happy by showing serious and productive committment at hitting the common enemy,

Keeping rabid bloodthirsty Slavophobes scheming to betray you happy: number one priority of any sound Russian policy.

Stalin said, in 1940, "These Nazis aren't to be trusted and we work with them in order to buy time". What's the more effective way to keep the Germans off your back: honey up to them to show them they were wroung about Jewish-Bolshevist Untermensch all along (and in the process increase your own military vulnerability to them), or leave in existence a credible threat on their other flank? The answer would be obvious even without factoring in Stalin's religious, mistaken belief that Germany would never fight on two fronts.

and not letting their otherwise estranged ally do all the heavy lifting,

That was precisely the point.

in a way that does not tax Soviet military resources very much.

The less it taxes them (and every little bit it taxes them is a little bit less to defend the Rodina), the less it taxes us. We won the BoB pretty convincingly.

So they have to deploy some of their air assets to France ?

Remember that any and all assets deployed to France will vanish the second Germany turns against the Russians. Which they will, and Stalin said so in December 1940.

Well, it's not like Soviet war effort is going to have much else to do, after the Middle East is conquered, besides replacing those planes and pilots.

Prepare for the confrontation against Germany, maybe? And why should they have to do anything? It's not like they wanted a war with Britain and France.

Of course, the Soviets might also keep pushing towards India,

They might also invade the moon and conquer the bottom of the sea. Sorry, but Russia invading India is a feverish fantasy of the original Jingos. It doesn't work, logistically speaking.

but they would do it for their own interests, since this is an area they coveted as well.

I have yet to see evidence of this. The Azis negotiations you like to cite consisted, it seems to me, of Ribbentrop going "Look! India! Shiny!" in an attempt to distract the Soviets from Germany's diplomatic preparations for Barbarossa (Germans in Finland but no Russian in Bulgaria), and Molotov not buying it.

As for Turkey, I do not expect it is going to last very much, after the Germans attack it from the west,

Bulgaria may not be mustard-keen on this idea.

the Soviets from the north and east,

The "east" was a narrow, mountainous frontier where Turkey had the interior LoC. The "north" was a big ole' sea. The Red Black Sea Fleet wasn't up to much, and if the Soviet Army (Winter War Vintage!) was capable of amphibious operations, which I doubt (or would they not have simply sailed into Helsinki in early December '39?), it would only capture a thin coastal strip before the mountains.

and both from the south.

How?


Afghanistan is also the door to India.

Yep! All you need need to do is to send multiple divisions across a part of your own country with comapratively minimal military infrastructure, into a pre-modern kingdom containing sweet fanny adams save mountains and angry armed people who hate you, over some narrow mountain passes, and up against fresh enemy divisions.

Easy job, really. It's just as well you don't have to defend your motherland from a foe determined to invade and kill every single one of your people.

Germany can easily hit Turkey itself from Bulgaria.

If Bulgaria says so. Yugoslavia, Romania, and Greece still exist at our PoD.

It's not like they are not going to have spare troops, after France and the British Middle East are done with. Germany from Bulgaria, Russia from Caucasus and Iran-Iraq, both from Syria.

Where did they get Syria?

How long is Turkey going to last ?

Not forever, certainly, but hey, Finland astonished the world, and it doesn't even have mountains. For a sufficient length of time for it to be questionable whether the Soviets would bother.
 
Couldn't Germany promise Bulgaria Edirne in return for allowing passage of german troops?

They could, but it's no certainty that Bulgaria would accept. They never really had a clean conscience about Axis membership (they flat-out refused to send troops to fight the Soviets), and Bulgaria had largely given up on eastern Thrace when the Bulgarian part of its population fled during the Second Balkan War: that war had come about, after all, because Bulgaria had tried to do too much with too little, and so they focused their efforts in more realistic goals with intact Bulgarian populations and got quite chummy with the Ottomans and then Turkey.

Besides, in late 1939, German troops would have to pass Yugoslavia as well, which ain't happening. Once Yugoslavia falls and Bulgaria has become an Axis member, of sorts, by default *assuming that still happens), it's a very differant story as Bulgaria can't really refuse.

But the time this has happened, however, the situation will likely have changed a lot. The Soviets may have got what they wanted in the Middle East and not be interested in opening another costly front when they're trying to make approaches to Britain and refocus on Germany.

Another question is whether Germany will have any interest in a non-trivial campaign on Russia's behalf.
 
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