1937-42, yet another alt British Army what-if

There are never ‘enough’ rounds but the Bren was the principal section weapon and having the riflemen use the same round adds to the possible resource to draw upon. Not to mention the reloading Bren magazines from the bandoliers carried by the riflemen, from which they reload their rifles. Having said that the Sten was replacing some of the rifles later in the war.

The comparison British use of Mannlicher en bloc or Mauser chargers is the cumbersome nature of the Mannlicher in a cloth bandolier compared to the thin Mauser chargers. The Americans kept their en blocs in their webbing, but then they did not have pouches full of Bren magazines. Individually I prefer the Mannlicher mode but the British army was Bren lead and demanded the pouches be full of Bren magazines (and grenades) so needed a thin charger for the rifles so as to be able to wear the cloth bandolier as the standard reload resource.

Later, with the L1A1 and L4, they could use each others magazines. There may be a lesson in that. With the L7A2 I recall much filling of ‘57 Pattern pouches with coiled GPMG belts as the GPMG reserve supply and ending up with reloading magazines in the field from chargers in cotton bandoliers and squeezing magazines into pockets.
Its not a hill I am going to die on and I respect the idea

Its just that the Bren gun Mags are incredible - in some respects some of the best magazines of the war

However as I said it was heavy - the Vickers Pederson rifle is already 9 pounds adding a Bren gun mag is going to make it

My understanding was that one chest pouch was for 2 x Bren gun magazines - the other for ammo clips, grenades, bars of nutty....and Sten gun Magazines could fit in them as well.

Perhaps if combined with the para smock dedicated pockets could be used for clips?

Of course the final design of the 37 webbing was not arrived at until after the Bren gun was adopted and the Pederson was not - so the layout etc could be adopted and changed accordingly.
 
Relatively limited production compared to rifles. New tooling, separate to mainstream.

Been was a bit different
And I was not suggesting adopting the Mas 40 as the main service rifle. At most it would be used to equip the Free French in Britain and possibly the Paras and Commandos. Wartime is not the time to change rifles and more specifically rifle rounds. Limited production for such use is doable if they wish.
 
My go to is having a dedicated device to launch a larger than No 68 type Grenades (which itself would have to be arrived at earlier) further and more accurately than using a Mills Grenade Cup launcher on an SMLE.

220px-A_member_of_the_Home_Guard_demonstrates_a_rifle_equipped_to_fire_an_anti-tank_grenade%2C_Dorking%2C_3_August_1942._H22061.jpg


Note the SMLEs in question were generally those deemed 'unfit for service' and used a special explosive round to 'send' the grenade and were not intended to be used as rifles except in an emergency.

So replacing a 4 + KG rifle with a 5 odd KG better RPG is not adding any burden to the unit.

Perhaps if the Mechanised force persisted into the 30s the need for small unit infantry (who are deemed to have been defeated by tank units by the umpires during exercises) to have the ability to take out tanks at closer ranges will expedite such weapons and drive innovation for ideas to defeat tank attack
I like your thinking. (Thx for the info on the "expended" rifles, too. It's new to me.)
 
Considering that the UK actually contemplated cemented (aka high-hardness) and high tensile-strength armor for A14, Covenanter/Crusader and TOG, so in the 38-40 period, there would be a case for testing 2pdr AP on such armor and studying capped rounds just in case. Moreover the French massively used capped rounds as early as 1934-5 so there's an example. Germany did too. BC is also nice for the early war small caliber rounds since these are particularly affected by velocity loss.

Note that capped rounds also were also already in use in navies, so the know-how was there.

Tungsten-cored ammo was not prevalent, but hardened steel-tungsten alloy (1.5-2.5% tungsten content) was used in the French 25mm (and by Japan in late WW2), so once again there is a prewar precedent.

I want to explore the aspect of full caliber antitank ammo again as I've learnt a lot more (including from british archives specifically) since this last post.

A ballistic cap certainly is worth using already in the mid 30s because even beyond the reduced drag, it also allows the nose of the core itself to be made slightly blunter (in line with interwar/WW2 APBC that is) and thus more effective against thick armor since unlike AP the steel core doesn't need to be made pointier to improve aerodynamics. As said before it was used by many other countries at the time, but Britain took until late 1942 or early 43 to field it for the 6 pounder, and 1944 for the 17 pounder (and certainly late for the 2 pdr as well). So that's a very low hanging fruit to improve performance even without wartime experience of thick armor.

As pointed out by someone else, the fielding of armor piercing caps for the 2pdr in wartime at least appears to have been constrained by limited facilities to develop and field it in time, although this is not confirmed. 6 pdr also went much of the war without an AP cap, and only 17 pdr got AP and APC ordered at the same time in 1941 (plain AP being a backup in case of cap shortages like for US ammo). To some degree the need for it was less crucial because high hardness and/or caliber thick plates and sloped plates were relatively uncommon so shitty underoptimized plain AP wasn't facing particularly difficult threats.
That said, there are still many arguments in favor of fielding capped ammo even before the war (when you can safely develop and produce it). Cemented and face hardened plates still existed even if mostly in thin plates designed against bullets, and the UK heavily considered thicker such plates for their tanks. It wasn't inconceivable that caliber-thick face hardened plates would be eventually fielded. Secondly, the British were already specifying and fielded thick plates in the mid/late 30s on the two Matildas, which badly overmatched the 2pdr and would promote core breakup. The high velocity of 2pdr ammo also already promotes shatter. In fact the Germans would field APCBC from day one based on naval practice, even on high caliber and low velocity ammo that were less likely to shatter. Now said caps were not optimal for the conditions of antitank guns as they were still only designed for 20° angle of attack and low velocity which is normal for naval ammo, but they still were useful and such APCBC was better than plain AP or APBC.

2pdr ammo at least also happens to have a relatively mediocre steel compared to ammo in other countries, so that it could break up to increase post pen effects. However this had the detrimental effect of limiting penetration capability, and frankly the increase in post pen effect against thin plates was not sufficient to justify that limitation. Note that this was part of why the 2pdr wasn't as superior to Soviet 45mm APHE during testing as it should have been.

Finally, as far as improving the 1937-42 situation goes, avoiding the atrocious 2 pounder APHE would be good too. Some people know that some stocks remained and were used in 1940 to disappointing effect. Now I understand why:​
manual.png

This is one of the worst if not the worst antitank APHE ever conceived because the filler cavity is absolutely gigantic and will heavily promote shell break-up even against bad armor. It would be actually closer to SAP, except SAP normally features an AP cap to reduce odds of core breakup. Regardless, the British should eiher skip this and go straight to solid shot like the French did in the interwar, or at the very least mitigate the limitations of APHE by having a proper cap and greatly reducing the size of the cavity, more in line with German practice.

So TL:DR: ideally you want APCBC from day one with a better steel for 2pdr. 6pdr and 17pdr were less reliant on such things, but would still benefit from APCBC already being entrenched in British practice. However, optimization against sloped armor and mass use of tungsten or APCBCDS are not very plausible for the 1937-42 period, as British postwar archives note that sloped armor wasn't really democratized until 1943, too late to adapt the ammunition. Tungsten and sabot technologies are similarly a bit late to introduce so early, save for squeezebore guns with tunsgten cores. The French looked at those as early as 1936 (Larsen-Gerlich types) and hoped to field such guns in 1941.


Some people may ask why the 2 pdr would need so much love when the British faced thin armor up to 1941. The main answers I would give are that acting early would restrict the benefit of German face-hardened 50mm plates and add-on armor faced in North Africa. Moreover it still made sense even in the late 1930s because the British had heavily armored Matildas specifically to counter the 2 pdr, and the Germans certainly could do the same even if they didn't OTL (ignoring the French who already loved heavy armor). Pending the arrival of a replacement gun there was reason enough to get the most out of the 2pdr against overmatching plates.

One last remark on the 2 pdr before I go on another subject. I noticed that it used straight-walled cases, which combined with the small caliber makes me believe it was primarily optimized for towed AT gun use rather than tank use. It's not necessarily a bad idea per se and we know the doctrine didn't require good multipurpose tank guns anyway, just a remark. I'd point out the American 37mm gun used short, necked cases which is better for handling in the small volume of tanks, and the French did the same for their tank guns. Straight walled cases are ideal for towed guns because they optimize packaging to carry a lot of ammo on truck beds, but considering many countries accepted optimizing case shape for tank use, maybe 2pdr would have been even easier to use with necked cases. British 2pdr AFV turrets weren't exactly roomy.



Note that all of my comments on ammo design also hold for a potential 47mm Vickers tank gun. Regardless of ammo design, the appearance of thick plates on the Matildas also warranted the deployment of guns of greater caliber than 40mm to avoid being badly overmatched. This can justify giving more support to the 6pdr's development, and more specifically this should have warranted greater interest from the Royal Armoured Corps (the RA/infantry already wanting that gun anyway).



On the topic of better tanks, I would also make a new observation from the knowledge I gained since we last discussed this: unlike other WW2 tank-building countries, the British struggled to push the enveloppe in the period up to 1941/42. France, Germany and the USSR all made a big effort towards cast and welded armor during the interwar with riveted/bolted armor being basically inexistent by the mid 30s save for the remaining thinly armored designs the French produced in low quantities (AMC/AMR/AMD series). The UK is barely testing welded armor in the period and uses castings for only a few tank types, or even just turrets.
These "Big Three" also progress heavily in the field of automotives (dedicated high power/power dense tank engines, diesels, advanced transmissions and steering systems).
Meanwhile the British are doing well with transmissions, but almost nothing is done for engines with the Meadows DAV/MAT being too small for use in tanks beyond 20 tons, the Meteor literally only exists because some guy at RR was bored, high power diesels from Ricardo were never picked on, and the whole rest is just twin bus engines or the odd outdated aircraft engine Nuffield bothered to buy (and the Liberty was still an improvement over what the UK had!). The dearth of tank engine projects contrasts with other countries and with the sheer mountain of British aircraft engine projects.
Finally, the French go as far as planning optical rangefinders for 1941/42 and work a lot on gun stabilization, the Soviets test stabs in the 30s and the Americans ended up fielding one within a year or two of being in the war, yet the British do little even though they loved firing-on-the-move capability enough to deliberately design gun mounts to do that.

Basically, my argument is that British tank design probably lagged behind that of other countries in part because little effort was made in this field comparatively. Things improved after 1942 but the damage was done.
 
I want to explore the aspect of full caliber antitank ammo again as I've learnt a lot more (including from british archives specifically) since this last post.

A ballistic cap certainly is worth using already in the mid 30s because even beyond the reduced drag, it also allows the nose of the core itself to be made slightly blunter (in line with interwar/WW2 APBC that is) and thus more effective against thick armor since unlike AP the steel core doesn't need to be made pointier to improve aerodynamics. As said before it was used by many other countries at the time, but Britain took until late 1942 or early 43 to field it for the 6 pounder, and 1944 for the 17 pounder (and certainly late for the 2 pdr as well). So that's a very low hanging fruit to improve performance even without wartime experience of thick armor.

As pointed out by someone else, the fielding of armor piercing caps for the 2pdr in wartime at least appears to have been constrained by limited facilities to develop and field it in time, although this is not confirmed. 6 pdr also went much of the war without an AP cap, and only 17 pdr got AP and APC ordered at the same time in 1941 (plain AP being a backup in case of cap shortages like for US ammo). To some degree the need for it was less crucial because high hardness and/or caliber thick plates and sloped plates were relatively uncommon so shitty underoptimized plain AP wasn't facing particularly difficult threats.
That said, there are still many arguments in favor of fielding capped ammo even before the war (when you can safely develop and produce it). Cemented and face hardened plates still existed even if mostly in thin plates designed against bullets, and the UK heavily considered thicker such plates for their tanks. It wasn't inconceivable that caliber-thick face hardened plates would be eventually fielded. Secondly, the British were already specifying and fielded thick plates in the mid/late 30s on the two Matildas, which badly overmatched the 2pdr and would promote core breakup. The high velocity of 2pdr ammo also already promotes shatter. In fact the Germans would field APCBC from day one based on naval practice, even on high caliber and low velocity ammo that were less likely to shatter. Now said caps were not optimal for the conditions of antitank guns as they were still only designed for 20° angle of attack and low velocity which is normal for naval ammo, but they still were useful and such APCBC was better than plain AP or APBC.

2pdr ammo at least also happens to have a relatively mediocre steel compared to ammo in other countries, so that it could break up to increase post pen effects. However this had the detrimental effect of limiting penetration capability, and frankly the increase in post pen effect against thin plates was not sufficient to justify that limitation. Note that this was part of why the 2pdr wasn't as superior to Soviet 45mm APHE during testing as it should have been.

Finally, as far as improving the 1937-42 situation goes, avoiding the atrocious 2 pounder APHE would be good too. Some people know that some stocks remained and were used in 1940 to disappointing effect. Now I understand why:​
manual.png

This is one of the worst if not the worst antitank APHE ever conceived because the filler cavity is absolutely gigantic and will heavily promote shell break-up even against bad armor. It would be actually closer to SAP, except SAP normally features an AP cap to reduce odds of core breakup. Regardless, the British should eiher skip this and go straight to solid shot like the French did in the interwar, or at the very least mitigate the limitations of APHE by having a proper cap and greatly reducing the size of the cavity, more in line with German practice.

So TL:DR: ideally you want APCBC from day one with a better steel for 2pdr. 6pdr and 17pdr were less reliant on such things, but would still benefit from APCBC already being entrenched in British practice. However, optimization against sloped armor and mass use of tungsten or APCBCDS are not very plausible for the 1937-42 period, as British postwar archives note that sloped armor wasn't really democratized until 1943, too late to adapt the ammunition. Tungsten and sabot technologies are similarly a bit late to introduce so early, save for squeezebore guns with tunsgten cores. The French looked at those as early as 1936 (Larsen-Gerlich types) and hoped to field such guns in 1941.


Some people may ask why the 2 pdr would need so much love when the British faced thin armor up to 1941. The main answers I would give are that acting early would restrict the benefit of German face-hardened 50mm plates and add-on armor faced in North Africa. Moreover it still made sense even in the late 1930s because the British had heavily armored Matildas specifically to counter the 2 pdr, and the Germans certainly could do the same even if they didn't OTL (ignoring the French who already loved heavy armor). Pending the arrival of a replacement gun there was reason enough to get the most out of the 2pdr against overmatching plates.

One last remark on the 2 pdr before I go on another subject. I noticed that it used straight-walled cases, which combined with the small caliber makes me believe it was primarily optimized for towed AT gun use rather than tank use. It's not necessarily a bad idea per se and we know the doctrine didn't require good multipurpose tank guns anyway, just a remark. I'd point out the American 37mm gun used short, necked cases which is better for handling in the small volume of tanks, and the French did the same for their tank guns. Straight walled cases are ideal for towed guns because they optimize packaging to carry a lot of ammo on truck beds, but considering many countries accepted optimizing case shape for tank use, maybe 2pdr would have been even easier to use with necked cases. British 2pdr AFV turrets weren't exactly roomy.



Note that all of my comments on ammo design also hold for a potential 47mm Vickers tank gun. Regardless of ammo design, the appearance of thick plates on the Matildas also warranted the deployment of guns of greater caliber than 40mm to avoid being badly overmatched. This can justify giving more support to the 6pdr's development, and more specifically this should have warranted greater interest from the Royal Armoured Corps (the RA/infantry already wanting that gun anyway).



On the topic of better tanks, I would also make a new observation from the knowledge I gained since we last discussed this: unlike other WW2 tank-building countries, the British struggled to push the enveloppe in the period up to 1941/42. France, Germany and the USSR all made a big effort towards cast and welded armor during the interwar with riveted/bolted armor being basically inexistent by the mid 30s save for the remaining thinly armored designs the French produced in low quantities (AMC/AMR/AMD series). The UK is barely testing welded armor in the period and uses castings for only a few tank types, or even just turrets.
These "Big Three" also progress heavily in the field of automotives (dedicated high power/power dense tank engines, diesels, advanced transmissions and steering systems).
Meanwhile the British are doing well with transmissions, but almost nothing is done for engines with the Meadows DAV/MAT being too small for use in tanks beyond 20 tons, the Meteor literally only exists because some guy at RR was bored, high power diesels from Ricardo were never picked on, and the whole rest is just twin bus engines or the odd outdated aircraft engine Nuffield bothered to buy (and the Liberty was still an improvement over what the UK had!). The dearth of tank engine projects contrasts with other countries and with the sheer mountain of British aircraft engine projects.
Finally, the French go as far as planning optical rangefinders for 1941/42 and work a lot on gun stabilization, the Soviets test stabs in the 30s and the Americans ended up fielding one within a year or two of being in the war, yet the British do little even though they loved firing-on-the-move capability enough to deliberately design gun mounts to do that.

Basically, my argument is that British tank design probably lagged behind that of other countries in part because little effort was made in this field comparatively. Things improved after 1942 but the damage was done.
The QF 2 Pounder was indeed made for towed anti tank work. When the army wanted a new tank gun the Treasury pointed out that they already had this fancy new anti tank gun to go into production that could kill any period tank so why did they expect new money so it would have to be found within the existing budget and that was thin enough already. With the navy and air force getting a higher priority. Hence the anti tank QF 2 Pounder became the new tank gun too and an old mountain howitzer adapted to meet the indirect fire task. What that mountain howitzer could not do is range far with any accuracy to drop HE onto enemy anti tank positions so it was principally to use smoke at shorter ranges. As it turned out it could deliver its HE load adequately at short ranges and very useful in Pacific jungles to strip away cover and to bust Japanese bunkers. With a fixed budget it is always either/or. Build a new tank gun with dual capacity and do without what?
 
And both took years to adopt them, and produce
And sadly the 15mm one was very disappointing. An effective auto/semi auto Besa 15mm could have been useful in a ground role as a vehicle mounted alternate to the Boys. Even more so especially if a minengeschoss style HE round could be developed.
I'm pretty sure it was a big heavy gun otherwise a good auto version would have been useful for aircraft.
 
On the 2 pounder AT rounds, caps were easily within the technology of the day and well proven from naval experience. The problem was that the 6 pounder was supposed to replace the 2 pounder in a year or so, which meant there was no real need to improve the 2pounder (eg by developing capped rounds). Then of course things changed - the 6 pounder was delayed by institutional inertia and then by Dunkirk, so the capped 2 pounder round was then needed, but at a time when so was everything else, and when for a while quantity was more important than quality.

As for the metallurgy, my understanding is that the 2 pounder solid shot production used very tightly controlled casting and cooling process to get a very hard tip [1]. This is good for boosting armour penetration until you start facing thicker face hardened armour. At that point, the high hardness of the AT round becomes a liability.

It's fair to say that OTL the choices were wrong, but without Dunkirk the problems would either have been avoided by earlier introduction of the 6 pounder or would have been much less of an issue and for a shorter period.

[1] Briefly, slower cooled cast steel is usually softer but less brittle while faster cooled is harder but more brittle. Clever control of mould design can allow faster cooling at the tip and slower in the body which saves having to add the time consuming extra step of heat treating the rounds to get the same structure.
Changing the shot design to accept a cap, adding a process to make and attach the caps, and maybe adding a windshield requires development, testing etc. But most importantly it requires either a new production line (but you're about to start rolling out 6 pounder rounds so why bother?) or a disruption to current production which leaves your tanks and troops with inadequate supplies of rounds (which did work against many targets, even if not all of them all the time).
 
And I was not suggesting adopting the Mas 40 as the main service rifle. At most it would be used to equip the Free French in Britain and possibly the Paras and Commandos. Wartime is not the time to change rifles and more specifically rifle rounds. Limited production for such use is doable if they wish.

Limited issue, creates a huge logistics pain.

Whether the wrong ammo arriving for a raid, or a cut off para unit received by ground troops having no ammo for them.

RM CDOs with 1st Marine division, just used Garands in Korea.
 
And sadly the 15mm one was very disappointing. An effective auto/semi auto Besa 15mm could have been useful in a ground role as a vehicle mounted alternate to the Boys. Even more so especially if a minengeschoss style HE round could be developed.
I'm pretty sure it was a big heavy gun otherwise a good auto version would have been useful for aircraft.

Sorry referring to bren and Besa.

15mm is the lower limit for fused HE. You need good wall thickness to survive the firing.

Mine shell will just no worth it. Neck up to 20mm would be better, but working APDS is a way away.
 
Reloading using enbloc clips is faster than using a magazine and unblock clips are easier to carry etc

Also Magazines are a risk and historically are responsible for the majority of jamming issues

Good ones such as the Bren Gun mags are also heavy

I would stick with the encloc clips and have the section carry the 25 odd Bren gun mags across the section (that's 750 rounds or more accurately 700 rounds as the mags were only loaded to 28 rounds ready to go) and that should be enough for the sections needs

Clips are ok up to 10 rds, but beyond magazines are quicker and less pauses.

The original FAL had a hole in the slide for topping up mags while attached. It was dumped.

The steel magazines of the time are SOLID. We get mixed up with the cheap alloy mags, with soft metal lips, or double row, single feed SMG mags. Take away rimmed cartridges, and the steel mag is perfect, when not overfilled. I never had a mis-feed with L1 steel mags, in all my service time. M16 lots.

For those who suggest using BREN mags in SLRs, forget it. The L2/C2 SLR-HR had leaf springs in them. Coiled springs do not have the grunt to push up 30 full rifle cartridges. Bren mags push down, and (L4) only had coils.
 
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The C1A1, Canadian FN, had a stripper guide as part of the bolt cover. You could top up mags with your stripper clips while they were attached.
 
tumblr_inline_nr16wqPdz41qapn73_500.jpg

From my memory of using a Bren gun the magazine had a Leaf spring of nine or ten segments, as in the above illustration.
Having hand loaded Bren magazines (just a few as a cadet) I can assure you that every Bren magazine I handled despite being at that time at least 25 years old had plenty of spring pressure to push rounds up against gravity. YMMV.
Edited to show magazine details below
brenmagdiagram.jpg
 
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Bren magazines had a nominal load of 30 rounds but in practice were loaded only with 28 rounds. It was always a trap for new users when their weapon suffered a stoppage because someone had overloaded the magazine.
 
tumblr_inline_nr16wqPdz41qapn73_500.jpg

From my memory of using a Bren gun the magazine had a Leaf spring of nine or ten segments, as in the above illustration.
Having hand loaded Bren magazines (just a few as a cadet) I can assure you that every Bren magazine I handled despite being at that time at least 25 years old had plenty of spring pressure to push rounds up against gravity. YMMV.
Edited to show magazine details below
brenmagdiagram.jpg

Screenshot_20230527-223106_Chrome.jpg


The L2/C2 had a proper leaf spring for the above

BTW the receiver of the SMLE is shorter than the BREN with its hold open.
 
Clips are ok up to 10 rds, but beyond magazines are quicker and less pauses.

The original FAL had a hole in the slide for topping up mags while attached. It was dumped.

The steel magazines of the time are SOLID. We get mixed up with the cheap alloy mags, with soft metal lips, or double row, single feed SMG mags. Take away rimmed cartridges, and the steel mag is perfect, when not overfilled. I never had a mis-feed with L1 steel mags, in all my service time. M16 lots.

For those who suggest using BREN mags in SLRs, forget it. The L2/C2 SLR-HR had leaf springs in them. Coiled springs do not have the grunt to push up 30 full rifle cartridges. Bren mags push down, and (L4) only had coils.
If you have a handy local spring specialist company the L4 spring can be softened, stretched and re heat treated with no difficulty and feed fine. Um, allegedly. I know nothing of this of course. A big boy did it and ran away. I wasn’t there and I can provide witnesses if you give me some time…. The L4 magazines, not surprisingly, were made for the L4 task. Caution, this is not a home treatment task. It needs a specialist spring maker or the spring will either snap or collapse. What it does do is give you 10 more rounds for each magazine in the pouch. 20 round L1A1 magazines fit into the jacket pockets whereas 30 round L4 ones do not. Also handy top ups for your L4 if you have any attached to you. Of course this is all OT as it is post WW2.
 
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