1937-42, yet another alt British Army what-if

While I'm thinking about tanks, how about somebody tries out a few Vickers 6E, and recognises that while it's not a great tanks, it is a reasonably good tank - at least if the short 47mm is replaced by a real gun.
The Valentine is a much better tank, but emergency rearmament with 6E would have been possible 37 to 39 and they would have been much better in combat than the Vickers lights.
 
Mgs worked better than guns?
British WW1 tanks during the war swapped to hermaphrodite tanks with only one 57mm. The whippet only had mgs, the A1E1 - and a lot of other tanks [1] - had multiple mg turrets, light tanks (and even the Matilda 1) typically only had MGs. True the Renault had either MG or 37mm, but needed to carry canister to deal with infantry because it didn't have an mg. Post war they were fitted with mgs. See also US tank designs for mg love gone wild.
Cannon was still there.
French were oufitting their new tanks in the 1930s with cannon or two, even the 75mm howitzer was being installed. Soviets were doing the same in 1930s, even with the licence-built Vickers 6 tonners.

As for cruiser tanks with no meaningful HE throwers, that was some poor thinking. They really needed something more like the 75/L24 for the CS cruisers which - if doing the job they were designed for - would be nowhere near artillery support.

Even if the 6pdr from the Great War was retained, it woud've offered an usefull HE shell, while still demolishing German tanks of 1940, and, with a better shot, these from 1941.
 
While I'm thinking about tanks, how about somebody tries out a few Vickers 6E, and recognises that while it's not a great tanks, it is a reasonably good tank - at least if the short 47mm is replaced by a real gun.
The Valentine is a much better tank, but emergency rearmament with 6E would have been possible 37 to 39 and they would have been much better in combat than the Vickers lights.

The Vickers 6 tonner is indeed a missed opportunity for the British.
 
Sadly much of British Industry was craftsman based rather than what we would call an industrial approach. This is not meant to be a derogatory observation it is instead accepting that the master tradesmen had incredible skills but it took too long to train them.

As an example and yes this is a made up rhetorical style example.

Rolls Royce is making engines and every engine is put together by one master tradesman and as he builds the engine he hones and shapes the parts to get a perfect fit. The engine is reliable, high performing but has little direct parts commonality with the engines Fred next door makes. Also each engine takes a week to make.
60 tradesmen making 60 engines per week in total.

Ford gets the schematics for the same engine. They realise the drawings allow for finishing and is not replicatable or able to use stock parts. While rolls is making 60 engines a week the Ford Engineers spend three months getting every part to work perfectly every time with no final finishing required. A month later the plant opens and 60 workers get trained to do a single task each. No worker knows the entire engine just the parts they have to fit. By now Rolls has made 960 engines and Ford has made zero. Next month Rolls makes another 240 engines and Ford makes 120. Every worker has been triple trained and all parts are now fully interchangeable. The next month Ford makes 60 engines a day.
Rolls is still making 60 per week. Ford is now making 7 times the output and every single part will work in any engine without extra work. The main workers are now better than the tradesmen at the task they do 60 times a day.

This is exagerated and sounds fake......only they did this over and over again. British equipment was as good as American equipment, in some ways superior, in others far worse. The Bofors gun is the perfect example. The Packard Merlin was as good if not better than the equivallant mark of engine.

For the British Army to have superior equipment it needs to drive the cost of that equipment down through industrialisation of the PROCESS used to make the equipment. For example if the AT gun production line was setup to be a Ford style factory, the new 6 lb gun is easily placed into production with maybe a week of downtime while the process changes. In fact the line does not need to stop just reduced output for a week while training happens. Then you do extra shifts or OT to catchup.

The 2lb gun was very good, it was however inadequate for infantry support and had a dismal HE shell and no Canister round. A 47mm for example would have been marginally bigger but offer a significantly better ammunition selection and usefulness.
I have seen this idea farmed out sooo many times and then shot down

Simply not true of wartime British production

My Great Aunt built Merlin's in Crewe - in 1940 she had been a bookkeeper in Ireland - in 1941 she was building merlin Engines in England

She had no letters after her name, did not possess years of engineering craftsmanship and yet here she was building arguably one of the most advanced aircraft engines in production

This would not be possible if Rolls Royce was not practicing the then latest mass production techniques

What is true that just pre war and arguable in the very start where existing small industry was leveraged for war production we might see this example of small scale factory issues using outdated techniques

But RR Crewe and other major factory's such as Castle Bromwich assembly dispute it simply by existing

As for ammunition - the USA was not producing cannister for its 37mm until April 1942 and HE for the same weapon until Feb 1942

There had not been a perceived need for it
 
While I'm thinking about tanks, how about somebody tries out a few Vickers 6E, and recognises that while it's not a great tanks, it is a reasonably good tank - at least if the short 47mm is replaced by a real gun.
That would be the Soviets with the T26 and the Poles with the 7TP. In my opinion the British should have put a 2pdr and MG in the Vickers 6 tonner instead of building the Vickers Mk VI light tanks. It would have murdered the Panzer I and II's and been a real threat to the early III and IV's.


1669986260471.png
 
Last edited:
Simply not true of wartime British production
My Great Aunt built Merlin's in Crewe - in 1940 she had been a bookkeeper in Ireland - in 1941 she was building merlin Engines in England
She had no letters after her name, did not possess years of engineering craftsmanship and yet here she was building arguably one of the most advanced aircraft engines in production
This would not be possible if Rolls Royce was not practicing the then latest mass production techniques
What is true that just pre war and arguable in the very start where existing small industry was leveraged for war production we might see this example of small scale factory issues using outdated techniques
But RR Crewe and other major factory's such as Castle Bromwich assembly dispute it simply by existing

Agreed 200%.

As for ammunition - the USA was not producing cannister for its 37mm until April 1942 and HE for the same weapon until Feb 1942

There had not been a perceived need for it

Americans have had the M3 Medium tank in production from August of 1941, that solves a lot of their direct-fire HE needs.
 
Agreed 200%.



Americans have had the M3 Medium tank in production from August of 1941, that solves a lot of their direct-fire HE needs.

Oh totally but it was not in Regimental service on the frontlines until May 1942 and were not used by the US Army in combat until 1943

Until then it was 2 pounder or 37mm armed tanks and neither had proprietary HE ammo before 1942 and any HE ammo seen before then was McGyvered up in the field

For example in the Philippines only AP ammo was available for the 2 x M3 Stuart Battalions and any HE and Cannister rounds used were created by marrying up M1916 TRP ammunition to M3 37mm cases as this WW1 era weapon system was in use with the Philippine army and this only after the initial battles.
 
If I had not been so tired I would have used the Bofors gun as the example because it is fact. US Industry used less skilled workers initially and yet still produced laods of stuff. By wars end the workers knew their jobs as well as any trademan but did not have the full breadth of knowledge. IE could not do all tasks.
I don't think anyone denied has that was a fact. What has been denied is your strange insistence that this process was somehow unique to US industry.

To take your Bofors example. ROF Newport was one of the UK factories for making the 40mm bofors, it had an 80% female workforce most of whom had no prior industrial experience and those that did had it from working in the local sweets factory. But they still produced thousands of guns a year across a range of types. And they did it in exactly the way you describe, the build was broken down into small and simple tasks and then the workforce trained up to do one of those jobs, which they then did very well.

And Newport was entirely typical. By the MoS stats in early 1942 there were 300,000 people working in the various Royal Ordnance Factories. 60 per cent. of whom were women, 32½per cent. semiskilled and unskilled men, and only 7½per cent. skilled men.
 
Oh totally but it was not in Regimental service on the frontlines until May 1942 and were not used by the US Army in combat until 1943
Until then it was 2 pounder or 37mm armed tanks and neither had proprietary HE ammo before 1942 and any HE ammo seen before then was McGyvered up in the field
For example in the Philippines only AP ammo was available for the 2 x M3 Stuart Battalions and any HE and Cannister rounds used were created by marrying up M1916 TRP ammunition to M3 37mm cases as this WW1 era weapon system was in use with the Philippine army and this only after the initial battles.
Kinda shows that there was no such thing as monopoly on making mistakes, both bigger and smaller :)
 
That would be the Soviets with the T26 and the Poles with the 7TP. In my opinion the British should have put a 2pdr and MG in the Vickers 6 tonner instead of building the Vickers Mk VI light tanks. It would have murdered the Panzer I and II's and been a real threat to the early III and IV's.


View attachment 793086
Finnish forces also used Bofors 37mm and Soviet 45mm in the 6E.
There was an AA version using a Vickers pompom supplied to Siam/Thailand.
Derela.pl has some good info and pics.
 
Finnish forces also used Bofors 37mm and Soviet 45mm in the 6E.
There was an AA version using a Vickers pompom supplied to Siam/Thailand.

The Dragon IV carrier (based on the Vickers 6E) + HV pom pom for the British Army - how cool is that? Can also dispatch the enemy AT and artillery crews in no time.

The self-propelled 18 or 25 pdr, like the Germans did for the 10.5cm howitzer Geschutzwagen (using the captured British light tanks) would've also been interesting. Add the APC on the same chassis...
 
Last edited:
The Dragon IV carrier (based on the Vickers 6E) + HV pom pom for the British Army - how cool is that? Can also dispatch the enemy AT and artillery crews in no time.

The self-propelled 18 or 25 pdr, like the Germans did for the 10.5cm howitzer Geschutzwagen (using the captured British light tanks) would've also been interesting. Add the APC on the same chassis...
Birch gun, SPAAG, artillery tractor, command tanks and (unarmoured) troop carrier - all available in the 1930s in the UK. So much unrealised potential (allanpcameron's 'Sir John Valentine Carden survives' takes a look at what might have been).

Edit: The Germans managed to mount large calibre guns on captured Vickers lights. I'm not sure it's a good example, but why not give it a go.
 
Last edited:
There was an AA version using a Vickers pompom supplied to Siam/Thailand.
The Dragon IV carrier (based on the Vickers 6E) + HV pom pom for the British Army - how cool is that? Can also dispatch the enemy AT and artillery crews in no time.

Back to this - add some sheet metal as shileds, a coaxial MG, and British get three AFVs for the price of one: SP AA gun, SP AT gun, and a light tank.
 
Back to this - add some sheet metal as shileds, a coaxial MG, and British get three AFVs for the price of one: SP AA gun, SP AT gun, and a light tank.
This is the one. It's a shame the British Army had no money in the early 1930's, there was a lot of decent kit that could have been further developed.

1670018868334.png
 
Cannon was still there.
French were oufitting their new tanks in the 1930s with cannon or two, even the 75mm howitzer was being installed. Soviets were doing the same in 1930s, even with the licence-built Vickers 6 tonners.



Even if the 6pdr from the Great War was retained, it woud've offered an usefull HE shell, while still demolishing German tanks of 1940, and, with a better shot, these from 1941.
From Feldgrau and a few other pages it looks like Japanese 57mm tank gun was pretty much the same as the WW1 57mm tank gun. Muzzle velocity was nominally 538m/s, but I think that this only applied to the full length version, and shorter ones were 380m/s. Penetration for both versions is shown as 20mm at 500m. This may be an error for the full length gun as that's hardly better than the L18 37mm used in Renault FT and R35.
So basically decent HE performance, unimpressive AT performance (the opposite of the WW2 6 pounder).
As you said, a decent solid round should be good enough in 1940, and the HE performance would have been pretty useful. For me it's the perfect early war infantry tank gun that blows things up quite well and can poke holes in enemy tanks when they come close enough to have a chance against Valentine or Matilda armour, though a 6E with a 2 pounder would still be a useful interim cruiser/medium tank.
 
Leaving aside weapons for a moment what improvements could be made to the soldier's personal kit? The Battledress is pretty good but what of the webbing and boots? Early adoption of the MkIII (Turtle) helmet?
 

Driftless

Donor
Leaving aside weapons for a moment what improvements could be made to the soldier's personal kit? The Battledress is pretty good but what of the webbing and boots? Early adoption of the MkIII (Turtle) helmet?

Could you have textured* boot soles made from vulcanized rubber, or some long-wearing synthetic material in that pre-war time? A bit lighter and more damp resistant that hob-nailed leather soles. Quieter too, though that would be considered a bug on street marches. :rolleyes: :p. Also on the boot topic, could there have been a practical "jungle" boot for use by the Commonwealth forces across the globe. Lightweight, quick(er) drying, with drain holes for wet weather?

*by textured, I mean something comparable to modern Vibram(tm) soles
 
In the Mid 1980's a worked with a Zimbadian, ex Rhodesian Scout who had a pair of boots resoled with the tread from a tire as well as a pair of car tire sandals!
so if you can make car tires you can make rubber soles for boots, it is just a matter of getting a reason in the 1930's to do it.
 
Top