1937-42, yet another alt British Army what-if

[Gannt the chartist]

It’s also worth noting that Britain dug out single-shot martini-Henry carbines to equip the home guard, Moisin-nagants have also been on the front line in the Ukraine, and ammunition boots were British Army issue until the sixties. Just because armies have a lot of old crap tucked away in their warehouses or clogging up their supply chains does not immediately mean it is what they want to have, or want in those quantities.

Sure, if desperate it better than nothing but the Vickers-Maxim is a horrendous old Victorian fossil, and it being used by anyone after the twenties is a solid indicator of something having gone wrong somewhere. The M1917 is at least at the cutting edge of WW1 technology and designed for easy manufacture on early 20th C tooling, but it’s also not really the right answer to anything even before WW2.

Heck, even the British army loved the Vickers soooo much they bought the Vz26 (half a million or so), ZB-38 (40,000 or so) , hung spare Lewis & VGOs all over stuff, and used cheap Browning M1919s on many vehicles into the seventies.

The Bren is a replacement for the Lewis not the Vickers. The Water cooled MG were concentrated in the MG Corps in 1916, later MG Bn at Brigade level totally different function. The Maxim ( which is shorthand for the slew of derivates - Vickers C is a 1912 design going into production in 1914. The M1917 is actually a 1900 design only adopted in 1917 after being rechambered for the 30.06 so not some super effective high tech fantasy gun. Its a water cooled MG that does what all do and the Russian Maxim is a 1910 design refined in the 30s and 40s.

The ZB 38 or BESA is a tank machine gun again as a replacement for the Vickers they actually bought 7 Vz26 and 30, and probably the same number of 53, all other production is in Britain or Commonwealth countries not bought from the Czechs any more than the SAW is bought from the Belgians. The Other air cooled MG are designed as aircraft MG and scavenged in small numbers, but then these guys are not above mounting Italian weapons either or ASW weapons on Matilda II for that matter.

The m1919 Brownings are not cheap they and the ammunition is free, lend lease, and every Sherman or Stuart left over from WW2 has a couple. By the 70s the standard calibre is 7.62 NATO and the MG is the GPMG. The one exception to that would be the Ferret which could be fitted with Bren GPMG or Browning. Others switch out the BESA or Browning leftovers for the GPMG over time.

But this is the 1930s. and

 

[CaptainCalvert]

One of the drivers for Germany adopting an air cooled mg would be that they wanted a highly mobile attacking army for quick victories, which favours a relatively light and portable weapon over a less portable watercooled weapon.
The French adoption of the air cooled thick-barrelled Hotchkiss pre-WW1 leaves me a bit puzzled, but since they never developed a water cooled version, it must have worked well enough in the trenches.

 

[phx1138]

anyone who mentions turrets on fighters to mysteriously disappear for a year and a day.

Delete all after "disappear".

What the B.A. needs most is combined arms doctrine and joint training.

PIAT with 100+mm warhead would be good.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Delete all after "disappear".

What the B.A. needs most is combined arms doctrine and joint training.

PIAT with 100+mm warhead would be good.

An RPG 7 type weapon would be fantastic

Simple, relatively light and easy to use although it does have significant back blast

 

[phx1138]

An RPG 7 type weapon would be fantastic

Simple, relatively light and easy to use although it does have significant back blast

Amen. How likely is a 2-stage launch (push out of the tube, then sustained)? Goal: short launch tube.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

An RPG 7 type weapon would be fantastic

Simple, relatively light and easy to use although it does have significant back blast

A PIAT with some kind of lever to allow the spring to be reset more easily would be good as the lack of back blast could be an advantage when firing from cover and inside buildings Unfortunately the curved flight path wasn't an advantage.

 

[phx1138]

A PIAT with some kind of lever to allow the spring to be reset more easily would be good as the lack of back blast could be an advantage when firing from cover and inside buildings Unfortunately the curved flight path wasn't an advantage.

Fine by me. I like the rocket for more range/velocity.

Re uniforms: was something that wouldn't "dissolve" in jungle possible? Was camo pattern (not solid color) too sophisticated?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Re uniforms: was something that wouldn't "dissolve" in jungle possible? Was camo pattern (not solid color) too sophisticated?

Nope and the Parachute Regiment wore camouflaged Denison Smocks,

Denison smock - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Driftless]

Re uniforms: was something that wouldn't "dissolve" in jungle possible? Was camo pattern (not solid color) too sophisticated?

The USMC had camo unis for a time, but was wear and tear of that particular cloth an issue?

How about an early version of ripstop fabric?

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

to repeat a comment from a previous thread:

Can some gunsmith just invent the *PKM and produce it in .303?

 

[phx1138]

To wank that even farther... After the War, it got a stroker crankshaft, going from 95hp to 110hp, to 255 cubic inches
The block maximum was found by hot rodders to 295 cubic inches, for around 127HP and more torque
So that's the upper limit for a little more power in that vehicle

It isn't.

Ardun (Zora Duntov, of Corvette fame) developed a flatty hemi, used in Ford trucks, and Pasteur developed a hemi head for the 136ci for SIMCA Brazil.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Amen. How likely is a 2-stage launch (push out of the tube, then sustained)? Goal: short launch tube.

The original RPG 2 was about 5 kgs with rocket

It was launched with IIRC a 30mm blank like a rifle grenade?

Have it then have a short burn rocket

While it’s never going to be Karl Gustav accuracy it is light and portable and easy to use.

And tankers having AT rockets fired at them from range are going to ‘discouraged’.

I can see it issued as a section level weapon in a way that heavier systems like PIAT and Panzerschrek could not.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Get the plans for the MAS 40 from the French and hand them over to Enfield for further work. It may come to nothing, or only be used to equip the Free French but then again it might be useful for raiding forces. (The UK won't change it's main rifle round during wartime)

MAS-49 rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Llewwyy]

Get the plans for the MAS 40 from the French and hand them over to Enfield for further work. It may come to nothing, or only be used to equip the Free French but then again it might be useful for raiding forces. (The UK won't change it's main rifle round during wartime)

MAS-49 rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They could in turn forward a copy to Longbranch or Inglis to work on. Chamber it for 7.92x57 and supply/sell to the Chinese.

 

[phx1138]

The original RPG 2 was about 5 kgs with rocket

It was launched with IIRC a 30mm blank like a rifle grenade?

Have it then have a short burn rocket

While it’s never going to be Karl Gustav accuracy it is light and portable and easy to use.

And tankers having AT rockets fired at them from range are going to ‘discouraged’.

I can see it issued as a section level weapon in a way that heavier systems like PIAT and Panzerschrek could not.

+10.

If it got thought of...

IMO, anything that pushes effective AT down to "point of contact" is good,

If it could be done with a launcher the size of an M79 with even PIAT performance, excellent.

 

[Capt Thunderbolt]

Get the plans for the MAS 40 from the French and hand them over to Enfield for further work. It may come to nothing, or only be used to equip the Free French but then again it might be useful for raiding forces. (The UK won't change it's main rifle round during wartime)

MAS-49 rifle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unlikely.
France is metric, and the whole thing needs to be converted to metric gauge.

Garand is imperial, but still needs minor redrawing to British treads and tolerance.

I'd go for garand.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Unlikely.
France is metric, and the whole thing needs to be converted to metric gauge.

Garand is imperial, but still needs minor redrawing to British treads and tolerance.

I'd go for garand.

The two Besa's were also metric,

 

[Some Bloke]

Use the Browning 303 instead of the BESA as a vehicle machine gun to simplify production and logistics.

Switch to the .5 inch round for the water cooled Vickers.

Adopt the Hyde 33 in 9mm Parabellum, simplify the design as the war progresses.

Switch to the Browning Hi Powered as a pistol.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Use the Browning 303 instead of the BESA as a vehicle machine gun to simplify production and logistics.

Switch to the .5 inch round for the water cooled Vickers.

Adopt the Hyde 33 in 9mm Parabellum, simplify the design as the war progresses.
View attachment 833840

Switch to the Webley Self Loading Pistol in the same calibre.

There was a 0.5" Vickers but the strength of watercooled guns is the ability to just keep firing. The 0.5" is not much better against people than a 0.5"and having go cart around much bulkier and heavier ammo and an even bigger heavier gun that fire slower is a big price for modest effect against softskins and light tanks. The experience on vehicles suggests it wasn't that good even then.


Edit. I think that the 0.5" is actually not much better than the 0.303". Perfection will follow later!

 

[steamboy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farquhar–Hill_rifle

Just dust that off and sort out the magazine and any other issues, no need to license anything.