1930s Intelligence

I was wondering if anyone had a good idea of how extensive or sophisticated the various Great Powers intelligence networks were across the world during the 1930s prior to WW2, Axis or Allies, outside of the main warzones.

I'm particularly interested in what the later Axis powers had or knew about say the Commonwealth.

I've always assumed that they had a rough idea of the capacity of each of the nations but nothing really extensive compared to say the Soviet's capabilities during the Cold War.

The principle reason for this assumption being that the Commonwealth dominions and colonies would not have had formal diplomatic representation in each capital to any great degree, if at all. Whereas by comparison, the Soviets post War seemed to make a real effort to have quite strong embassies in most countries.

So, what did the Germans know about say Australia's military production, capacity or economy? Or indeed, Newfoundland or Rhodesia? Did Japan have any sort of good opinion on the South African navy? Did Italy keep tabs on New Zealand's coastal artillery etc etc (silly examples yes!).
 

abc123

Banned
I was wondering if anyone had a good idea of how extensive or sophisticated the various Great Powers intelligence networks were across the world during the 1930s prior to WW2, Axis or Allies, outside of the main warzones.

I'm particularly interested in what the later Axis powers had or knew about say the Commonwealth.

I've always assumed that they had a rough idea of the capacity of each of the nations but nothing really extensive compared to say the Soviet's capabilities during the Cold War.

The principle reason for this assumption being that the Commonwealth dominions and colonies would not have had formal diplomatic representation in each capital to any great degree, if at all. Whereas by comparison, the Soviets post War seemed to make a real effort to have quite strong embassies in most countries.

So, what did the Germans know about say Australia's military production, capacitr econoy omy? Or indeed, Newfoundland or Rhodesia? Did Japan have any sort of good opinion on the South African navy? Did Italy keep tabs on New Zealand's coastal artillery etc etc (silly examples yes!).


It's pretty hard to have informations about allmost non-existant things...
 
Would they need intelligence networks? I would assume that simply buying a copy of the budget and army/navy lists would suffice? How much apart from a few technical/planning secrets was actually keep from the public?

I'm particularly interested in what the later Axis powers had or knew about say the Commonwealth.
So, what did the Germans know about say Australia's military production, capacity or economy? Or indeed, Newfoundland or Rhodesia? Did Japan have any sort of good opinion on the South African navy? Did Italy keep tabs on New Zealand's coastal artillery etc etc (silly examples yes!).

I think the main problem was you would spend huge amounts of time hunting for very little, apart from potential capacity that could be got from the budget and open numbers of ships/men what did the commonwealth (other than UK) actually have in the early/mid 30s?
 

Driftless

Donor
I would think most of the major & intermediate powers at least had a military attache' with their embassies in foreign capitals. Those guys (at least the enterprising ones) would make a point of getting out and viewing whatever military assets their hosts had for public consumption. The next layer of investigation is a different consideration.

I would think the British had agents of varying capacities in just about every corner of the world, from trained MI-6 professional spies, to merely observant and loyal ships captains and business people who report interesting things they saw - covering both friend and foe.

Other countries - I think your mileage may vary considerably.
 
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For a brief run down of who was doing what pre war on the spying front I would suggest the introduction and first chapter of Sir Max Hastings, The Secret War.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
I know that the Japanese Naval Intelligence kept a close watch on the Dutch defenses in the East Indies, with estimates being taken and analyzed and war plans being drawn up as early as 1934. The Japanese military didn't just blunder into attacking the West; they knew for a long time what was in the works with likely the Dutch or the British; it was the American oil embargo that truly delivered a shock to their expectations, as they took neutrality for granted, even after the Panay incident.

As for Axis spying on the Commonwealth, that is hard to ascertain completely. The Germans and Italians both had foreign intelligence services that were at times laughably incompetent and at times, with the help of allies who knew what they were doing, like the Finns, who had dirt on basically everyone, surprisingly clever. From what little I have read, the Italians were aware that holding onto East Africa in the event of war with the British would be difficult, but they expected (and not unreasonably, I might add) that Egypt would be a cakewalk to take. They underestimated their own military incompetence and the effect of logistics on the African campaign far more than they should have, as shown by Mussolini refusing to build up any of the infrastructure in Eastern Libya, due to his fear that doing so would have prompted a stronger British defense in place, when by all indications, the British were not taking defense all that seriously until it was too late, and were far more worried about keeping a lid on Palestine than any moves from Libya.
 
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It's pretty hard to have informations about allmost non-existant things...

Well not really. It would be,for example, very easy to ascertain the extent of NZ's coastal artillery before the War without too much effort.

Perhaps as someone said simply by reading through government yearbooks.

I'll also note that my great uncle arranged the arrest of an Austrian born Nazi sympathiser who regularly boasted about his connection back home and what would happen once the Nazis obtained victory.
 

abc123

Banned
Well not really. It would be,for example, very easy to ascertain the extent of NZ's coastal artillery before the War without too much effort.

Perhaps as someone said simply by reading through government yearbooks.

I'll also note that my great uncle arranged the arrest of an Austrian born Nazi sympathiser who regularly boasted about his connection back home and what would happen once the Nazis obtained victory.

I wanted to say that military capabilities of Commonwealth countries ( outside of the UK ) were so minuscule and relativly non-important for Germany/Italy/Japan that they would hardly bother with any real intelligence work except for OSINT...
 
Of course. They were all educated at Cambridge.

I'm not sure how widely known it is outside of Australia and NZ, but the Soviets also managed to infiltrate us via that same route. Like the US we've sent many people over to Oxbridge as Rhodes Scholars and it seems at least several became Soviet spies or informers, in the usual manner during the 30s. They then returned home and may have provided the Soviets with intelligence post WW2.

I'm thinking specifically of Milner here (as I'm from the same town and his father taught my grandfather) and the Petrov Affair/Verona decrypts.
 
I'm not sure how widely known it is outside of Australia and NZ, but the Soviets also managed to infiltrate us via that same route. Like the US we've sent many people over to Oxbridge as Rhodes Scholars and it seems at least several became Soviet spies or informers, in the usual manner during the 30s. They then returned home and may have provided the Soviets with intelligence post WW2.

I'm thinking specifically of Milner here (as I'm from the same town and his father taught my grandfather) and the Petrov Affair/Verona decrypts.

Isn't there a conspiracy theory that Harold Holt was a Soviet spy and he disappeared when it became clear his cover could be blown?
 
I wanted to say that military capabilities of Commonwealth countries ( outside of the UK ) were so minuscule and relativly non-important for Germany/Italy/Japan that they would hardly bother with any real intelligence work except for OSINT...

Yes, because the Allies wouldn't care about the military capabilities of Bulgaria or Romania because they were too small. That's how it works.
 
Yes, because the Allies wouldn't care about the military capabilities of Bulgaria or Romania because they were too small. That's how it works.

The British Secret Intelligence Service did have stations in Sofia, Bulgaria, and Bucharest, Romania during the interwar period. Admittedly, they weren't supposed to be spying on those countries, but rather, co-operating with local security and intelligence services against the Soviets. However, that rule existed only on paper, and was routinely violated. The British also maintained military and naval attaches in these countries, so there must have been some degree of interest in ferreting out information about these countries' military capacities.
 
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