1919 Rhenish Republic and Anschluss

[Grey Wolf]

I am wondering what happens after the treaty is signed

OTL the Republic had years of problems trying to get Freikorps units to disband only to find them reforming or pretending to be something else (eg an agricultural commune in E Prussia for one, in order to explain all these men sleeping together in a large dormitory).

But with Noske and Groener in control, the Freikorps ought to be more easily controlled as they are effectively looking towards the same thing. One might see government-inspired attempts to pretend the Freikorps have disbanded, but secretly supporting them.

A lot of the Freikorps were monarchist at heart, but the workers were not. However, after a White Terror across the whole country, and especially in Berlin, the workers are probably less inclined to be come out with their sympathies under the veritable military dictatorship

I suppose the question is whether or not the government can come to an understanding with the workers and run the country without it collapsing. Medium term can it avoid the Franco-Belgian occupation of the Ruhr and economic collapse ?

Grey Wolf

 

[Susano]

I think every government will have troubles disbanding the Freikorps as long as there are restrictions on the german military - the official reaosn stated by the freikorps why they exist, as kinda reserve units.

And IOTL, that is what the government did, relying on the workers. Workers militias saved the government from the coup of... hell, when whs that coup? gnah,c ant even remember his leader and namessake...lol
However, IOTL it was a SPD govbernment. A conservative govenment will have problems winning over the workers. Instead, they might even NEED the freikorps to get the worker under control.

However, even if they manage this, this will not avoid ecoomical collpse. That collapse was created by Versailles. Only if economical restrictions were lifted, too, in the altered versailles we use here collaps can be avoided.

 

[Steffen]

I think every government will have troubles disbanding the Freikorps as long as there are restrictions on the german military - the official reaosn stated by the freikorps why they exist, as kinda reserve units.

And IOTL, that is what the government did, relying on the workers. Workers militias saved the government from the coup of... hell, when whs that coup? gnah,c ant even remember his leader and namessake...lol
However, IOTL it was a SPD govbernment. A conservative govenment will have problems winning over the workers. Instead, they might even NEED the freikorps to get the worker under control.

However, even if they manage this, this will not avoid ecoomical collpse. That collapse was created by Versailles. Only if economical restrictions were lifted, too, in the altered versailles we use here collaps can be avoided.

I think you mean the 1920 kapp- lüttwitz putsch.

 

[Susano]

Yes, thank you!

 

[Karl Martell]

I live in the Rhineland (Aachen) and from the sources I've read, it seemed to me that the separatists were a VERY small fringe minority. They had little to no popular backing, and only managed to pull of what they did (hoist the flag, occupy a few town halls) because the French were occupying the Rhineland, and didn't move a finger to stop the separatists. The movement collapsed on itself less than a month later even without intervention from Germany - the local resistance against the separatists was enough to thwart their attempts.

Separatism never was popular in the Rhineland. There also were next to no unifying cultural feelings the way there were in Bavaria. Being catholic and speaking related dialects just isn't enough to make a nation. There had never been a Rhenish state before, so even had the French actively backed the separatists they would have a very uneasy puppet republic. It would be as if Bismarck had decided in 1871 to make Alsace-Lorraine an "independent" republic instead of annexing it.

It also makes no sense economically. There are no distict industrial areas in the Rhineland - between Cologne and Ludwigshafen it used to be entirely agrarian back then, and the industries of the lower Rhine prospered mainly because of the nearby Ruhr industrial area. The Rhine was also the most important transport waterway of Germany... any government in Berlin would totally go bonkers.

 

[Susano]

Well,A ustria remaiend speerated form Germany by allied force only, too, so same wil count for the Rhineland. Yes the speratists wer eonly a fringe group, but if its a term in the peace treaty, Berlin wont be able to do much about it, right?
It will just be a french vasall state... and vasall states do not realyl need an economy that could survive on its own.

 

[Karl Martell]

Well,A ustria remaiend speerated form Germany by allied force only, too, so same wil count for the Rhineland. Yes the speratists wer eonly a fringe group, but if its a term in the peace treaty, Berlin wont be able to do much about it, right?
It will just be a french vasall state... and vasall states do not realyl need an economy that could survive on its own.

Austria had a distinct identity since the Habsburgs. It wasn't as if the Allies needed to march troops into Austria to keep them from merging with Germany.

Berlin could always refuse to sign the treaty. It would have meant renewed war, but IMHO no Weimar politician would have put his signature under a treaty that would cut the Rhineland off. They would rather provoke the Brits and Americans to make a separate peace treaty, and then wait until the French have realized they can't permanently hold Germany down without those two.

 

[Susano]

Non-sense. Austrian population felt as (and was) just as German as the Rhinelandian population. The only differenceis that the rhineland had actualyl been part of teh empire, and austria not, since 1866.

And nice tehroy you have, but it did not really work IOTL either, now did it?

 

[Karl Martell]

Non-sense. Austrian population felt as (and was) just as German as the Rhinelandian population. The only differenceis that the rhineland had actualyl been part of teh empire, and austria not, since 1866.

And nice tehroy you have, but it did not really work IOTL either, now did it?

The Austrians speak German to this very day, they drive German cars, listen to the same pop music as we Germans do and watch all of our afternoon trash talk shows on their TV channels. Yet they have no desire to be Germans.

I think the obvious difference in 1918 - the Rhineland was part of the German Reich, while Austria was a country of its own, albeit an amputated one - counted for more than you perhaps think.

And as for the "theory" - of course it did not work in OTL, because the Versailles treaty was supported by Britain, France and Poland. Surrounded by the Entente forces, they couldn't refuse. But if the French include such an outrageous demand in the treaty, a demand whose only profiteer would be France, the Brits and Belgians would be VERY wary of backing the French. Of course they would want to see Germany punished for the war. But they would not send their armies into an expedition deep into Germany solely to help the French realize their cuckoo ambitions.

Aspects of the Versailles treaty like the reparations, and the demilitarization of western Germany, were already heavily in favor of the French. The British supported them because they saw the demilitarization as a necessary measure to prevent future German agression, and because Belgium and France, having been the battlefield for four years, had a right to receive compensation. (Although the immense sums that the French demanded later on did not have all that much support from the Brits.) There was not much chance of splitting the Entente coalition by refusing to sign the treaty in summer 1919.

But carving a French satellite out of the German Reich - would that still have support? I doubt it.

And besides, things like "you give us the Rhineland and we let you have Austria" don't work in reality. If the Russians invaded Texas, the USA wouldn't give them Florida and Georgia to get Texas back, even if it had been the USA who started the war.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Foch and the French army are an element in this equation that you are overlooking. OTL they DID plan and execute the proclamation of a Rhenish Republic in Spring 1919. The Allied heads demanded they stand down and after a couple of tense days they did

This ATL was predicated upon a Bolshevik control of Germany going in to 1919, and on there being no German armies in the Baltic in early 1919 meaning a greater Soviet advance and a failing Poland.

Clemenceau at home was under great pressure for apparently giving in to Lloyd George and Wilson, and for not supporting Foch. Poincare was backing Foch against Clemenceau, even openly.

If Germany appears to be going Bolshevik, even after the start of a military counter-offensive as postulated here, in order to protect its frontiers France is going to look at the Rhineland. It is relatively free from Bolshevik uprisings having Allied troops all over the place and being under the command of a French general.

If Clemenceau comes to see Foch's point of view then he could push it, or give it his support if Foch goes ahead unilaterally. The other Allies cannot force France to back down, and given how the threat of Bolshevism is perceived they may not want to

Grey Wolf