1914 The Schlieffen disaster ?

Has anyone looked at what happens if the French and British get wind of Moltke junior's version of the Schlieffen plan in some detail. Maybe a spy, maybe a traitor or maybe an accident of some sort.
Do the French, Belgians and British manage to cut off the advancing German 1st and 2nd armies. Maybe the 3rd and 4th German armies are held in the Ardennes with better French preparation while the 2 more northern armies blunder on unaware of the trap they are running into.

The more i read about and consider the Schlieffen plan the more it dawns on me, what a potentially huge disaster waiting to happen this could have been for the Germans. but will the allies agree to allow part of Belgium to be over run in order to lay the trap.
 
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BlondieBC

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Has anyone looked at what happens if the French and British get wind of Moltke junior's version of the Schlieffen plan in some detail. Maybe a spy, maybe a traitor or maybe an accident of some sort.
Do the French, Belgians and British manage to cut off the advancing German 1st and 2nd armies. Maybe the 3rd and 4th German armies are held in the Ardennes with better French preparation while the 2 more northern armies blunder on unaware of the trap they are running into.

The more i read about and consider the Schlieffen plan the more it dawns on me, what a potentially huge disaster waiting to happen this could have been for the Germans. but will the allies agree to allow part of Belgium to be over run in order to lay the trap.

Yes, it is a risky plan. But it was hardly secret. It was widely expected in the civilian press that Germany would go through Belgium. It has to do with politics related to two Prussian officers actions in A-L about 1912 that we get the modern French Plan of OTL WW1. It was no more a secret than the Soviets would attack Nato in the plains of Germany come WW3. Both sides had broad general understandings of the others sides likely actions. In east and west.

Now to what you are asking. If the French follow the pre-1913 War Plan and don't attack into A-L, we see the French likely save the French industrial area near the border. Then the lines stall out at some point. Then Germany has to turn east. Much better for France, but still a long war.

Also remember as the French attack towards the Germans advance, the Germans can't advance as far, so the gaps in the lines may never develop from OTL.
 
Maybe Joffre needs to be replaced in 1913, maybe an accident - lot of figures have accidents on here. :p

A different, bolder French commander not influenced by the events of 1870.
 
The more i read about and consider the Schlieffen plan the more it dawns on me, what a potentially huge disaster waiting to happen this could have been for the Germans. but will the allies agree to allow part of Belgium to be over run in order to lay the trap.


They wanted the Germans to advance well into Belgium - the further the better.

Their plan was to break through in Alsace-Lorraine, so the more Germans off on the right wing (ie in Belgium) the weaker they would be in the centre. Had they realised Moltke was strengthening the Lorraine front at the expense of the right wing, the French would have been disappointed, but most probably have reacted by weakening their own left in order to bash the Lorraine front that much harder. Main result - an increase in casualties on both sides.
 
Has anyone looked at what happens if the French and British get wind of Moltke junior's version of the Schlieffen plan in some detail. Maybe a spy, maybe a traitor or maybe an accident of some sort.
Do the French, Belgians and British manage to cut off the advancing German 1st and 2nd armies. Maybe the 3rd and 4th German armies are held in the Ardennes with better French preparation while the 2 more northern armies blunder on unaware of the trap they are running into.

The more i read about and consider the Schlieffen plan the more it dawns on me, what a potentially huge disaster waiting to happen this could have been for the Germans. but will the allies agree to allow part of Belgium to be over run in order to lay the trap.

Lay what trap, specifically? The very fact the German right was so strong seems to preclude anything from the Entente but a head-on clash with their main strength.
 
Lay what trap, specifically? The very fact the German right was so strong seems to preclude anything from the Entente but a head-on clash with their main strength.

Why? At the Marne in September the Entente hit the German armies in the flank. With foreknowledge they could have done so earlier.
 
What if the French better concentrate to prevent 3rd army keeping contact with 2nd army, while the BEF and Belgians retreat North East ready to come down on the flank of 1st army later. German communication was pretty poor as the advance dragged on with 1st and 2nd armies eventually loosing all communication.
 
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