1914 Graf Spee heads north

As to neutrality rules, I am not interested in a rules lawyer debate on how to best twist the rules to benefit on faction over the other. Let’s level it at read the US proclamation for the canal and draw your own conclusions.

Thanks for reminder of Princess Royal. I thought a BC was in area but couldn’t remember name.

HMS Princess Royal, she can destroy von Spee very easily and run him down; its what Fisher had in mind for the type. Assuming she is at Jamaica, its roughly 550 nm away and she could be on station within 30 hours or less once at sea with her boilers ready. I am assuming 19 knot cruise speed. I wouldn’t assume a much higher cruise speed out of concern for stoker fatigue.

If it takes longer than 48 hours to get out of Panama and Princess Royal is in Jamaica von Spee is dead. If its 24 hours to get out a case can be made he is dead.

If Princess Royal is some place else or isn’t ready to sail then you have a window that maybe, perhaps von Spee can get outside of site of Panama coast. As said above I think 4th Cruiser squadron will try to engage Von Spee no matter what. If Princess Royal isn’t able to sail or is else where like looking for Karlsruhe which they didnt know was lost until March 1915 or Dresden or one of the ACM the Germans had. See my previous comment on how a battle with 4th cruiser vs German East Asia plays out.

Michael
 
As to neutrality rules, I am not interested in a rules lawyer debate on how to best twist the rules to benefit on faction over the other. Let’s level it at read the US proclamation for the canal and draw your own conclusions.

Thanks for reminder of Princess Royal. I thought a BC was in area but couldn’t remember name.

HMS Princess Royal, she can destroy von Spee very easily and run him down; its what Fisher had in mind for the type. Assuming she is at Jamaica, its roughly 550 nm away and she could be on station within 30 hours or less once at sea with her boilers ready. I am assuming 19 knot cruise speed. I wouldn’t assume a much higher cruise speed out of concern for stoker fatigue.

If it takes longer than 48 hours to get out of Panama and Princess Royal is in Jamaica von Spee is dead. If its 24 hours to get out a case can be made he is dead.

If Princess Royal is some place else or isn’t ready to sail then you have a window that maybe, perhaps von Spee can get outside of site of Panama coast. As said above I think 4th Cruiser squadron will try to engage Von Spee no matter what. If Princess Royal isn’t able to sail or is else where like looking for Karlsruhe which they didnt know was lost until March 1915 or Dresden or one of the ACM the Germans had. See my previous comment on how a battle with 4th cruiser vs German East Asia plays out.

Michael


Very good information Mike, very good! Thanks for posting this!
 

DougM

Donor
Try this. The Germans are seen by the Royal Navy entering some US port. (TBD) and thus the Royal Navy sits in ambush just outside territorial waters.
Bad weather rolls in.
The British agents is informed (wrongly) that the Germans will be making a run for it at a given time.
At said time in very bad visibility a number of navy ships are seen to be departing.
As the silhouettes of the ships became visible in the fog the British officer in charge starts to get nervous knowing that he does not have a decisive advantage over his German Counterparts.
Onboard one of the ships a flash is seen through the fog.
The British officer in charge sees the flash and opens fire on the departing vessels.
By extreme luck the first salvo finds its mark and a Golden BB detonates triggering a change reaction that ends with the main magazine igniting and the ship is blown in half.
The English are elated their opponents just lost one ship and are slow in responding to fire. Giving the Royal Navy enough time for three more salvos before they begin a ragged return fire.
The battle ends with two ships sunk outright two more taking on water fast and the rest turning and running back to the neutral waters of the US port. All of them damaged to one degree or another.

Meanwhile on shore the British official in charge of intelligence takes an urgent phone call from one of his sources. And is appalled to her what his informer has to say. A group of war ships just left the harbor at the appointed time. But it was NOT the Germans. It was a group of US Navy ships that coincidentally were of the same number and approximate size as the German ships.

Hearing this the British official desperately tries to get this information into the hands of the Royal Navy, But even thow the Navy has ships only a few miles away he KNOWS the information will not arrive in time. And he pulls out the finest hard liquor he has and pours himself a tall one, then another and another as off in the distance he can ever so faintly hear the sounds of thunder. But he knows it is the sound of big navel guns.

Later after the rumbling stops he goes out to his car to drive home. But out of some morbid fascination he turns on to the road that runs along the coast line on a winding twisting path formed by the tall cliffs. By a strange twist of fair the fog parts just enough for the Official to catch site of the USN ships as the limb back into the harbor. He watches as the smoke rises from the ships and the fires burn. Perhaps he can hear the alarms going off on the ships as the crews desperately try and save the injured crewmen and the very ships themselves. Then as a large explosion erupts on one of the vessels the British Official loses control of his car and goes flying o Er the cliff.
Later all that will be know is that he died instantly and that he reeked of alcohol. The debate will continue for centuries over the question of this being an accident or intentional suicide.

Meanwhile out at see the British crews are celebrating an amazing victory. The sunk two ships damaged many others and sent the agermans back into port with their tails between Thier legs and they did it all in poor visibility. And people say the Royal Navy can’t hit anything, This will show them.
Meanwhile the officer in charges gets an urgent telegram. Upon reading the telegram he is seen to turn white. He gets up slowly from his chair on the bridge. Mumbles something to his XO and departs to his quarters. Over the next half hour rumors begin to spread around the ship. That perhaps, just perhaps those ships were not German.
The XO gettin concerned by the behavior of his commander and though he won’t adm it to himself by those rumors knocks on his bosses door. As he rants for a second time he hears a muffled noise that sounds disturbingly like a gunshot.

In port the German admiral is called to the Bridge as soon as the damaged USN vessels are spotted returning. And quickly concludes what must have happened and his mind races on how to best take advantage of this situation. He turns to his aid and issues an order that his entire medical staff is to be ready to offer assistance. And that his best salvage and repair crews are to be ready to offer assistance in getting the men out of the mangled wreckage of the US ships.
He then instructs his legal Officer to report to him IMMEDIATELY and the race to the offices of the port athority whereupon he informs them that he wishes to request that his ships be intured for the duration of the war.

The next day all across the nation news boys call out.
“extra, Extea. Multiple US Navy ships sank, thousands DEAD from sneak attack by England! Extra Extra Read all about it”

In Washington DC the Senator from Wisconsin stands and is recognized. Turning slowly to address his fellow senators he demands and immediate declaration of war against Great Britain and any of her so called allies that may have had a hand in or even knowledge of this dastardly and cowardly sneak attack upon the neutral ships of the US Navy as the departed a US port. After he sits back down over the next few minutes ALL the Senators from the Midwest States stand to lend their voices in support of this demand.
 
As to neutrality rules, I am not interested in a rules lawyer debate on how to best twist the rules to benefit on faction over the other.
Fair enough, as an exercise on this thread. If you were writing this as a alternate history story, that would be one point of tension, or plot hinge. Opposing sides would have their interpretations, which would benefit them. So part of that story would be a courtroom drama.
 
The next day all across the nation news boys call out.
“extra, Extea. Multiple US Navy ships sank, thousands DEAD from sneak attack by England! Extra Extra Read all about it”

In Washington DC the Senator from Wisconsin stands and is recognized. Turning slowly to address his fellow senators he demands and immediate declaration of war against Great Britain and any of her so called allies that may have had a hand in or even knowledge of this dastardly and cowardly sneak attack upon the neutral ships of the US Navy as the departed a US port. After he sits back down over the next few minutes ALL the Senators from the Midwest States stand to lend their voices in support of this demand.
And all across Canada a sense of dread falls since they know the dough boys are going North
 
By extreme luck the first salvo finds its mark and a Golden BB detonates triggering a change reaction that ends with the main magazine igniting and the ship is blown in half.

No need for the BB, just have the Brits make a torpedo attack. The ships of the era, especially smaller ships like cruisers could not eat a torpedo without serious consequences.
 
No need for the BB, just have the Brits make a torpedo attack. The ships of the era, especially smaller ships like cruisers could not eat a torpedo without serious consequences.

Issue is torpedoes of the era where VERY short ranged. Makes it less likely for target mis-identification because would have to close to use. Also USN armored cruisers with cage masts were rather distinct in appearance.
 
Issue is torpedoes of the era where VERY short ranged. Makes it less likely for target mis-identification because would have to close to use. Also USN armored cruisers with cage masts were rather distinct in appearance.

True, how about USS Milwaukee? She'll look darn close to Scharnhorst while in a thick fog. Regardless, either way.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Try this. The Germans are seen by the Royal Navy entering some US port. (TBD) and thus the Royal Navy sits in ambush just outside territorial waters.
Bad weather rolls in.
The British agents is informed (wrongly) that the Germans will be making a run for it at a given time.
At said time in very bad visibility a number of navy ships are seen to be departing.
As the silhouettes of the ships became visible in the fog the British officer in charge starts to get nervous knowing that he does not have a decisive advantage over his German Counterparts.
Onboard one of the ships a flash is seen through the fog.
The British officer in charge sees the flash and opens fire on the departing vessels.
By extreme luck the first salvo finds its mark and a Golden BB detonates triggering a change reaction that ends with the main magazine igniting and the ship is blown in half.
The English are elated their opponents just lost one ship and are slow in responding to fire. Giving the Royal Navy enough time for three more salvos before they begin a ragged return fire.
The battle ends with two ships sunk outright two more taking on water fast and the rest turning and running back to the neutral waters of the US port. All of them damaged to one degree or another.

Meanwhile on shore the British official in charge of intelligence takes an urgent phone call from one of his sources. And is appalled to her what his informer has to say. A group of war ships just left the harbor at the appointed time. But it was NOT the Germans. It was a group of US Navy ships that coincidentally were of the same number and approximate size as the German ships.

Hearing this the British official desperately tries to get this information into the hands of the Royal Navy, But even thow the Navy has ships only a few miles away he KNOWS the information will not arrive in time. And he pulls out the finest hard liquor he has and pours himself a tall one, then another and another as off in the distance he can ever so faintly hear the sounds of thunder. But he knows it is the sound of big navel guns.

Later after the rumbling stops he goes out to his car to drive home. But out of some morbid fascination he turns on to the road that runs along the coast line on a winding twisting path formed by the tall cliffs. By a strange twist of fair the fog parts just enough for the Official to catch site of the USN ships as the limb back into the harbor. He watches as the smoke rises from the ships and the fires burn. Perhaps he can hear the alarms going off on the ships as the crews desperately try and save the injured crewmen and the very ships themselves. Then as a large explosion erupts on one of the vessels the British Official loses control of his car and goes flying o Er the cliff.
Later all that will be know is that he died instantly and that he reeked of alcohol. The debate will continue for centuries over the question of this being an accident or intentional suicide.

Meanwhile out at see the British crews are celebrating an amazing victory. The sunk two ships damaged many others and sent the agermans back into port with their tails between Thier legs and they did it all in poor visibility. And people say the Royal Navy can’t hit anything, This will show them.
Meanwhile the officer in charges gets an urgent telegram. Upon reading the telegram he is seen to turn white. He gets up slowly from his chair on the bridge. Mumbles something to his XO and departs to his quarters. Over the next half hour rumors begin to spread around the ship. That perhaps, just perhaps those ships were not German.
The XO gettin concerned by the behavior of his commander and though he won’t adm it to himself by those rumors knocks on his bosses door. As he rants for a second time he hears a muffled noise that sounds disturbingly like a gunshot.

In port the German admiral is called to the Bridge as soon as the damaged USN vessels are spotted returning. And quickly concludes what must have happened and his mind races on how to best take advantage of this situation. He turns to his aid and issues an order that his entire medical staff is to be ready to offer assistance. And that his best salvage and repair crews are to be ready to offer assistance in getting the men out of the mangled wreckage of the US ships.
He then instructs his legal Officer to report to him IMMEDIATELY and the race to the offices of the port athority whereupon he informs them that he wishes to request that his ships be intured for the duration of the war.

The next day all across the nation news boys call out.
“extra, Extea. Multiple US Navy ships sank, thousands DEAD from sneak attack by England! Extra Extra Read all about it”

In Washington DC the Senator from Wisconsin stands and is recognized. Turning slowly to address his fellow senators he demands and immediate declaration of war against Great Britain and any of her so called allies that may have had a hand in or even knowledge of this dastardly and cowardly sneak attack upon the neutral ships of the US Navy as the departed a US port. After he sits back down over the next few minutes ALL the Senators from the Midwest States stand to lend their voices in support of this demand.
Not possible.

Firstly, international law stated:

If, notwithstanding the notification of the neutral Power, a belligerent ship of war does not leave a port where it is not entitled to remain, the neutral Power is entitled to take such measures as it considers necessary to render the ship incapable of taking the sea during the war, and the commanding officer of the ship must facilitate the execution of such measures.

When a belligerent ship is detained by a neutral Power, the officers and crew are likewise detained.

The officers and crew thus detained may be left in the ship or kept either on another vessel or on land, and may be subjected to the measures of restriction which it may appear necessary to impose upon them. A sufficient number of men for looking after the vessel must, however, be always left on board.

The officers may be left at liberty on giving their word not to quit the neutral territory without permission.

Art. 25.
A neutral Power is bound to exercise such surveillance as the means at its disposal allow to prevent any violation of the provisions of the above Articles occurring in its ports or roadsteads or in its waters.

Art. 26.
The exercise by a neutral Power of the rights laid down in the present Convention can under no circumstances be considered as an unfriendly act by one or other belligerent who has accepted the articles relating thereto.

The normal manner of doing this in the age of steam was to remove all the coal from the bunkers, and leave them anchored in the middle of a large bay. Coaling a ship is not simple matter, nor can it be done covertly. Interned ships aren't leaving.

The U.S. would also, assuming the ships were in San Francisco, have interned them near Mare Island, likely in Suisun Bay (the location of the U.S. "Mothball fleet" post WW II, including a number battleships and aircraft carriers). It is a 41 mile trip to reach the ocean. While modern construction has replaced it long since, in 1914 there was railroad draw bridge that blocked unfettered passage in/out. The rather formidable defenses of San Francisco Harbor would have 12 hours or more notice of any movement (much like the coaling process, the effort to build steam is coal fired boilers is also non-trivial matter, and is impossible to disguise) plus the presence of any actual U.S. warships in the Bay.

Every other port on the West Coast would have some version of this same set of precautions.

Secondly, in order for this to take place the RN flotilla would have to be under the command a village idiot. The German squadron was not worth risking the United States entering the War against the United Kingdom.
 

DougM

Donor
Because we have never seen stupidity from an English officer.... (cough Charge of the light Brigade, to name perhaps the most famous village idiot moment )

Because spy’s have never been mistaken in reporting what was going on.

Because no look out has ever miss identified a ship before.

Because no ship has ever accidentally attacked the wrong countries ships.

This list goes on and on.

While it is EXTREMELY unlikely for this to happen stupid stuff happens all the time. In theory this should not happen, but in theory the Chernobyl accident should not have happened.

Yes it takes a number of things to go wrong. But if you look at most major airplane crashes those take usually three or 4 things to go wrong.

The biggest opps but the easiest to make is the miss identification of the ships and it sounds unlikely it I as is it any more unlikely for the watch (often relatively new personal) to mis identity a ship then it was for three trained aircraft pilots to keep pulling the nose of an airbus up for over three minutes all the while the alarm is calling out stall stall stall? If three airline pilots can screw up in a moment like that a couple of folks can miss I’d a ship in the fog.

Once again is it likely? Heck no, but it is not ASB.
 
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