1905 - Russia beats Japan
- Thread starter Aegyptos
- Start date
I seem to be the only one who has brought this up. In this timeline Russia would still be a monarchy. Yes a constitutional monarchy, but still a monarchy with an Imperial Family.
That brings up the possibility of marriage between Tsar Nicholas II's children or the children of any future Tsar with other Royal families of Europe. That is going to have some influence on which way Russia goes in terms of which countries it considers to be it's allies and on the alliances and agreements it makes, who it backs in some disputes, even which side it takes in a World War II.
It seems to me The Brittish Royal Family would be a natural choice as a European Royal Family for one or more of Nicholas II's children to marry into. If The Tsarevitch marries a Brittish Royal Princess, that is going to strongly influence which way Russia goes in some things.
A number of people in this thread seem to have assumed that Russia beating Japan would strengthen Imperial Russia and The Tsar enough to butterfly away the Russian Revolution and Communism in Russia. If that is true The Romanov's will remain in power and the Romanov offspring will marry into the other Royal Houses of Europe, and that is going to have an effect on which way Russia goes in terms of who her allies are and the alliances she makes.
That brings up the possibility of marriage between Tsar Nicholas II's children or the children of any future Tsar with other Royal families of Europe. That is going to have some influence on which way Russia goes in terms of which countries it considers to be it's allies and on the alliances and agreements it makes, who it backs in some disputes, even which side it takes in a World War II.
It seems to me The Brittish Royal Family would be a natural choice as a European Royal Family for one or more of Nicholas II's children to marry into. If The Tsarevitch marries a Brittish Royal Princess, that is going to strongly influence which way Russia goes in some things.
A number of people in this thread seem to have assumed that Russia beating Japan would strengthen Imperial Russia and The Tsar enough to butterfly away the Russian Revolution and Communism in Russia. If that is true The Romanov's will remain in power and the Romanov offspring will marry into the other Royal Houses of Europe, and that is going to have an effect on which way Russia goes in terms of who her allies are and the alliances she makes.
In other words, Nunya was amused by Grey Wolf's dismissal of whmann1988's contentions, and called the latter a "noob," indicating that he is (according to nunya) a new member of not much depth yet.
It certainly seems likelier than in OTL, and as a thought how about a Russian Grand Duchess as a wife for the future Edward VIII (there was a precedent with the Duke of Edinburgh) ? I think I did that in my 'Tsar Michael The Great' timeline/story actually.
I guess what happens long-term depends on whether war in Europe still comes. One effect that the Russian defeat did have was to show up all the shortcomings in the Russian army, navy and materiele. It did this in a disastrous way with a whole host of negative consequences of its own, but at least it WAS done and Russia had ten years to fix things before the Great War
It could be that Russia continues to act with a sort of false arrogance after victory. Its arms and leaders are not as good as it thinks they are etc.
I would need to think more on this, because IMHO Russian grand strategy tended to swing between East and West when it suffered a rebuff in the one; hence, if victorious in the East, would Russia be QUITE so concerned about events back in Europe ?
The corollary to this though is that a victorious and apparently strong Russia is not going to stand for the shenanigans by Austria over Bosnia-Hercegovina and since the Austrians would clearly see this too they probably won't carry them out. This leaves Bosnia in much the same position as Egypt - nominally Ottoman, but administered by another great power.
Without the loss of Bosnia would the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans fall AT ALL to the local powers ? Russia would be LESS interested because it is focused more in the East...
Hmmm... As I said I'll think on this a bit more !
Grey Wolf
It seems to me that a scenario like this one would make Russia and England natural allies in the event of a World War II in Europe. Whichever side England goes with in a World War II, Russia will probably be on that side as well.
As to the strength and ability of The Russian millitary. A win against Japan in 1905 would have increased Russia's self confidence, but also its distrust of some of its neighbors. Russia seems to have often been a somewhat paranoid country that didn't trust others. Russia has always had a kind of fortress mentality. Between 1905 and 1914 Russia might have built up its military.
With the experience of WWI Russia would probably have continued to build up its military during the 1920's and 30's. It is possible that The Imperial Russian Military (Army and Navy) by 1939 in TTL would have been about as strong as the Soviet military of that day in OTL.
The point I was trying to make about Royal and Imperial marriages is this. If The Russian Monarchy had survived and continued on, then Russian Grand Duchesses and Russian Grand Dukes are going to be marrying into the other Royal Houses of Europe. Add to that, a suitable wife would need to be found for The Tsarevitch, and since she will one day be The Tsarina (I think that's the proper term), she MUST be of Royal Blood. All that is going to a number of add dynamics to the picture that I don't think most posters in this thread considered. Those dynamics are going to be there in TTL and they will have an effect.
Another interesting alternate timeline scenario for WWII. In the 19th and 20th Centuries several European monarchies disolved. I know the cultures are totally different and Japan was very isolated and insulated, but what if in a desperate effort to find a Royal Princess as a bride for a Crown Prince, one of the Royal Houses of Europe had turned to Japan, and during WWII a Japanese Royal Princess is the wife of a European Crown Prince or of The King of a European country?
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I think this could be doable. Especially if Japan had suicceeded in getting that race equality clause included in the treaty ending the Great War.The Mists of Time said:
A European Prince taking a Japanese bride of noble birth strikes me as more likely than say, a European prince taking a bride of noble birth from one of the "princely states" in India, or from anywhere in Africa.
The Davout Dukes of Auerstadt have IIRC married into a noble Japanese house, and the current generation presumably should be half-Japanese in features.
Grey Wolf
As in all what-if's there are certain problems. One of these is that the Tsar promised his daughters that if they did not want to go abroad and marry a foreign prince then they would not have to. You only need to look at photographs of the imperial family in everyday life to see how close they were and how much it would have affected the girls to have been sent away. However, there WERE five of them, and as they grew older they would have had had to contemplate either a marriage within the Romanov dynasty (possible with the huge number of cousins around) or striking out on their own. Young women generally reach a phase when they want to take control of their lives - see, even for example, the daughters of Queen Victoria where even the youngest rebelled sufficiently against her mother's wishes to get herself a wife. I doubt the Grand Duchesses would leave it as late as the daughters of George III to finally break free - all of them married after child-bearing age. I suspect that what you would get is a mixture of all these potential outcomes :-
-a- marriage within the Romanov dynasty
-b- delayed marriage until early middle age
-c- marriage to a foreign princeling who comes to live at Tsarskoe Selo
-d- marriage despite initial wishes otherwise to a foreign prince of some standing
In 1914 before the war, the imperial family holidayed en masse in Rumania, and it was believed that this might in fact be a prelude to a marriage between one of the Grand Duchesses and Carol, second heir to the throne after his father Ferdinand (old King Carol I was still king at this time). I don't think anyone knows how likely this was, because I don't think the idea of it had really had time to form in the respective royal and imperial heads, so it may have gone ahead later in the year, or probably by 1916 if in peace time, one cannot really say one way or another.
It would certainly be interesting to think of what Carol II being wed to a Russian Grand Duchess would have done for European history ! He could surely not throw HER over for a Jewish lover, not without precipitating a Russian invasion of his country by an outraged Tsar
As for Alexei, it is certainly an interesting question
Oh, and either Tsarina or Tsaritsa is correct for the wife of the Tsar
Best Regards
Grey Wolf