1815->Sweden Loses Again

WI = The Congress of Vienna doesn't break up Denmark/Norway, and Sweden Does Not get Norway.

What's gone awry? :D

We will see a very pissed off Bernadotte/Karl 14. Johan.
I would assume the "need" to get Denmark-Norway into the last coalition outweigh the demand of Sweden to get Norway.
What is Sweden going to get instead of Norway?

As they are effectively barred from conquering Finland we may soon have a Scandinavian War with the Swedes trying to take Norway by force.
If the Swedes are satisfied in Germany - keeping Pomern and Wismar and perhaps given some other odds and bits we may see a veeeery interesting 1848! :eek:
 
What is Sweden going to get instead of Norway?

Sweden Loses -- ie doesn't gain anything.

I know you would need some kind of Danish POD involving switching sides, at the rite moment, or some such.
But I was more interested in the effects come mid 1800's and German Unification, and the like.
However a 1800's Swedish/ Danish war over Norway sound interesting, ?Any Ideas when, or who wins?
 
If Sweden does not get Norway, it is going to be revanchist for Finland for the entire 19th century. It was expected of Bernadotte that he would regain Finland for Sweden, he went for Norway instead, but with nothing, his position would be very weak, then he will NEED a war.
 
Sweden Loses -- ie doesn't gain anything.

I know you would need some kind of Danish POD involving switching sides, at the rite moment, or some such.
But I was more interested in the effects come mid 1800's and German Unification, and the like.
However a 1800's Swedish/ Danish war over Norway sound interesting, ?Any Ideas when, or who wins?

But does the Swedes keep Pomern and Wismar? If so you have a more interesting 1848 and then the times following Bismarck's accession to power - he'd have to get rid of three foreign powers instead of two to establish the German Empire.
Bad thing 1848 is that Pomern is a neighbour of Prussia itself.
BTW 1815 Prussia wanted Pomern - so?

I guess Sweden isn't going to wage war on Russia!
But Denmark-Norway that is another matter. And as v.Adler says Bernadotte is going to need it quickly.
So 1816 at the latest is my guess. Bernadotte had the army ready to move into Norway 1814 and did - so only a couple of years. The feeling of defeat would be too great in Sweden and as already said everbody wanted a go at Russia to get Finland.

How will the war go?
The Swedes had 11 ships of the line and 10 frigates but I read somewhere that only four of each were serviceable in 1814 - perhaps they just didn't fit out more.
They would probably be able to field an army no smaller than the one sent to Germany of 30000. Probably much more.

The Danish navy still suffered from the loss of 1807 and had only 2 ships of the line and 2 frigates left. Another frigate would join the navy 1815.

The Naval war seems a foregone conclusion but it really depends on the numbers brought into service by the Swedes. Also the navigation of the Danish waters is a bonus to the Danes as its numerous rowing gunboats, yes they had been quite useful even managed to defeat a British ship of the line!
So the Danes will not want to meet the Swedes on the Baltic but try to lure them into shallow waters to pull their teeth.

The land war is another story.
The Norwegian army numbered some 35000 and perhaps a few thoudsand Danish troops could be transported north but it would depend on the ability of the Danish-Norwegian navy to block the straits.
These troops would fight the Swedes but the Norwegians had suffered from famine during the years of 1807-14 when the Danish-Norwegian navy couldn't convoy the cereal ships for Norway.

The only real threat would be by Denmark threatening to invade Scania. That would tie up Swedish forces.

Most probably part or all of Norway would have to be cede except if Britain raise her voice at Bernadotte!
 
Most probably part or all of Norway would have to be cede except if Britain raise her voice at Bernadotte!

Didn't Sweden lose Finland because they wouldn't sever their connections with Britain? From what I've heard, Napoleon basically "told" Denmark to attack sweden (which russia joined in on) if they didn't sever their connections with Britain, which they didn't do, partly because The king of the time overestimated sweden's power?

In light of this... Funny that Bernadotte was suggested by Napoleon :D
 
Didn't Sweden lose Finland because they wouldn't sever their connections with Britain? From what I've heard, Napoleon basically "told" Denmark to attack sweden (which russia joined in on) if they didn't sever their connections with Britain, which they didn't do, partly because The king of the time overestimated sweden's power?

In light of this... Funny that Bernadotte was suggested by Napoleon :D

Sweden didn't want to join the Continental System of Napoleon - the blocking of trade with Britain.

As Russia wanted Finland Denmark-Norway was pressed by the Emperors to take part in the War against Sweden-Finland.

I don't think Napoleon suggested Bernadotte - the Swedish negotiator in Paris contacted Bernadotte on his own offering the Swedish throne and Napoleon did sanction it.
 
Didn't Sweden lose Finland because they wouldn't sever their connections with Britain? From what I've heard, Napoleon basically "told" Denmark to attack sweden (which russia joined in on) if they didn't sever their connections with Britain, which they didn't do, partly because The king of the time overestimated sweden's power?

In light of this... Funny that Bernadotte was suggested by Napoleon :D
Bernadotte was not suggested by Napoleon, I do not know why
this continues to pop up, Bernadotte was contacted by a lieutenant
Mörner on his own initiative offering the throne to Bernadotte, of course
the government in Stockholm was taken by surprise and not very happy
with it at least at first. The loss of Finland can be blamed on essentially
on person Carl-Olof Cronstedt probably the greatest traitor in our history.
he was commendant on Sveaborg the fortress outside Helsingfors, he surrendered to an inferior force of Russians and in the process sacrificed
most of the archipelagofleet which was anchored in the harbour. The
war plan for Finland was that the fieldarmy would slowly retreat north
fighting a withdrawal battle and lure the Russians into the wilderness, at
the right moment the army in Sveaborg 6000 strong would break out
from the fortress and cut of the Russians and afterwards recieve
reinforcements from Stockholm.
 
Bernadotte was not suggested by Napoleon, I do not know why
this continues to pop up, Bernadotte was contacted by a lieutenant
Mörner on his own initiative offering the throne to Bernadotte, of course
the government in Stockholm was taken by surprise and not very happy
with it at least at first. The loss of Finland can be blamed on essentially
on person Carl-Olof Cronstedt probably the greatest traitor in our history.
he was commendant on Sveaborg the fortress outside Helsingfors, he surrendered to an inferior force of Russians and in the process sacrificed
most of the archipelagofleet which was anchored in the harbour. The
war plan for Finland was that the fieldarmy would slowly retreat north
fighting a withdrawal battle and lure the Russians into the wilderness, at
the right moment the army in Sveaborg 6000 strong would break out
from the fortress and cut of the Russians and afterwards recieve
reinforcements from Stockholm.

aha, ok :D tack för infon
 
If Sweden does not get Norway, it is going to be revanchist for Finland for the entire 19th century. It was expected of Bernadotte that he would regain Finland for Sweden, he went for Norway instead, but with nothing, his position would be very weak, then he will NEED a war.

Just a question: if the powers had decided to punish Denmark but at the same time don't want to give Norway to Sweden, could they have accepted an independent Norwegian kingdom in 1815?
 
Just a question: if the powers had decided to punish Denmark but at the same time don't want to give Norway to Sweden, could they have accepted an independent Norwegian kingdom in 1815?

Why not?

There would be no problem in finding a King all of Europe was able to supply one - on the eve of Swedish invasion the Danish governor Prince Christian (later Christian 8. of Denmark) was even elected such.
 
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