1797, the French Republic Saved!

Glen said:
I'm confused. Are you saying that Carnot was the problem?


NO. I'm saying he wasn't the solution OTL, which is a bit different.

Basically, I'm saying the rot continued to grow under him OTL.

In order to change that, you need to change the way he takes to power. However, as he was already in power, he wouldn't do a coup and it woyuld take something to have him change his way.

As a regicide, he was definitely threatened if the Bourbon came back. So I was suggesting having more royalists in the 500, in order to get Carnot to move ( by voiding the elections ). Then, who knows...
 

Glen

Moderator
fhaessig said:
NO. I'm saying he wasn't the solution OTL, which is a bit different.

Basically, I'm saying the rot continued to grow under him OTL.

In order to change that, you need to change the way he takes to power. However, as he was already in power, he wouldn't do a coup and it woyuld take something to have him change his way.

As a regicide, he was definitely threatened if the Bourbon came back. So I was suggesting having more royalists in the 500, in order to get Carnot to move ( by voiding the elections ). Then, who knows...

A counter-coup against Barras and the other plotters is my suggestion, when he learns of their plans from a surviving Hoche who has been approached by the plotters. Its my understanding that the Barras faction in the Directory were the problem, and then when they removed Carnot and Bartholemy from the Directory the problem intensified.

Here we get rid of the Barras faction in the Directory, installing Republicans vetted by both Carnot and Hoche (I think you make a good case for keeping him as the POD). If Hoche would have been a moderating influence on Barras, how much more so on Carnot?
 
I concur

Glen said:
A counter-coup against Barras and the other plotters is my suggestion, when he learns of their plans from a surviving Hoche who has been approached by the plotters. Its my understanding that the Barras faction in the Directory were the problem, and then when they removed Carnot and Bartholemy from the Directory the problem intensified.

Here we get rid of the Barras faction in the Directory, installing Republicans vetted by both Carnot and Hoche (I think you make a good case for keeping him as the POD). If Hoche would have been a moderating influence on Barras, how much more so on Carnot?

Keep Hoche alive and have him and Carnot stymie the coup of Fructidor. Note that since Augereau was Bonaparte's man, what fate for the latter?
 

Glen

Moderator
bill_bruno said:
Keep Hoche alive and have him and Carnot stymie the coup of Fructidor. Note that since Augereau was Bonaparte's man, what fate for the latter?

Don't know. Maybe none if Barras went to Hoche early enough that Augereau doesn't get involved before the counter-coup.

What are your thoughts?
 

Glen

Moderator
Let us say that we can arrange a POD that instead of the Consulate and then Empire, leads to a reformed Directory and then a reasonably functional representative democracy.

During that period, what would be happening in the UK? Could the French this time pull off enough support for a successful Irish uprising? An island-wide Republic of Eire? And could fears of republicanism in Great Britain lead a fearful government to crack down too much, triggering the very revolution they intended to prevent? Just some thoughts...
 

Glen

Moderator
Who would be the best leaders with a POD around the mid 1790s to lead France to a stable Republic?

Preferably at the same time being a sponsor of Republicanism thoughout Europe and the World.:D
 

Glen

Moderator
Glen said:
Who would be the best leaders with a POD around the mid 1790s to lead France to a stable Republic?

Preferably at the same time being a sponsor of Republicanism thoughout Europe and the World.:D

The question still stands. Who would be the best leaders for France in this timeline, particularly ones who will stabilize the Republic while retaining its commanding presence in world affairs.
 
Glen said:
The question still stands. Who would be the best leaders for France in this timeline, particularly ones who will stabilize the Republic while retaining its commanding presence in world affairs.


When you're asking about the best leaders, do you speak from a civilian PoV or a military one?

For the later, most of Napoloen's Marshalls and generals should still be available, plus a few others, such as Kleber, Moreau and Hugo.

For the former, in addition to Carnot and Hoche, don't forget Talleyrand ( just to get a hint of Realpolitik ), Gregoire and Vidocq ( a bit young in 1797, but later... )
 

Glen

Moderator
fhaessig said:
When you're asking about the best leaders, do you speak from a civilian PoV or a military one?

For the later, most of Napoloen's Marshalls and generals should still be available, plus a few others, such as Kleber, Moreau and Hugo.

For the former, in addition to Carnot and Hoche, don't forget Talleyrand ( just to get a hint of Realpolitik ), Gregoire and Vidocq ( a bit young in 1797, but later... )

I was talking about civilian, but thanks for the lists. I'll have to look into them.
 
Max Sinister said:
And Mirabeau, if he survives.


With a 1797 PoD?

Difficult. He died in 1791 OTL.;)

OTOH, Necker is still alive. Maybe he could be convinced to try again to clean up french finance
 
One very good thing with this TL is that slavery stays banned in all french colonies and Haiti is likely to develop along french lines ( and stay close to France as the 1801 consitution doesn't get proclaimed ).
 
Glen said:
A counter-coup against Barras and the other plotters is my suggestion, when he learns of their plans from a surviving Hoche who has been approached by the plotters. Its my understanding that the Barras faction in the Directory were the problem, and then when they removed Carnot and Bartholemy from the Directory the problem intensified.

Here we get rid of the Barras faction in the Directory, installing Republicans vetted by both Carnot and Hoche (I think you make a good case for keeping him as the POD). If Hoche would have been a moderating influence on Barras, how much more so on Carnot?

Wasn't Napoleon in charge of the Army, when Barras did the Coup of Brumaire. Since Napoleon was firmly in Barras' Camp that would make things problematic for any counter coup.

If Napoleon was for the Counter Coup, then it would succeed.
 
Kidblast said:
Wasn't Napoleon in charge of the Army, when Barras did the Coup of Brumaire. Since Napoleon was firmly in Barras' Camp that would make things problematic for any counter coup. .

No, it was Augerau who helped Barras for the military side of the 1797 coup. Which was the 18 fructidore year V of the republic. At that point Bonaparte was an unknown general in charge of a secondary army on an unimportant theater ( which he got because Josephine was a former mistress of Barras, BTW ) and still fighting there ( it's more than a month before campo formio ).

With his protector gone, Bonapartes will take longer to raise to the top of the armies - if he does - and certainly will never be emperor ( he won't go to Egypt and will not acquire fame there - as well as being isolated from the political infighting - ).

You're mixing two different coup. The 18 brumaire one was in the year VII of the republic, that is 1799.
 

Glen

Moderator
Note that the POD need not be 1797, just that events need to play out similarly until 1797 otherwise in the French Republic. At least enough to get all those fun satellite republics.

Good ideas here, people. Keep em coming!
 
Glen said:
Note that the POD need not be 1797, just that events need to play out similarly until 1797 otherwise in the French Republic. At least enough to get all those fun satellite republics.


It still is very difficult to reweave Mirabeau in the 1797 picture; the man turned Royalist in his later days. So, in order to get anything like OTL, he's either dead - maybe by the Guillotine - or in exile.

As for bonaparte, I'd say to forget him also. Italy was his first command ( not first major or first independent, first command, period ) and he needed to develop a reputation. Given the timeframe and his age, he can't have done this by early 1797; Not to mention that, by fructidor year V, he was establishing the Cisalpine republic ( by merging the Cispadane and transpadane republics ). Changing his mission may abort these republics ( originally, the army of Italy was not supposed to attack and no other general would have dared meddle with the political sphere that way ).
 
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Glen

Moderator
fhaessig said:
It still is very difficult to reweave Mirabeau in the 1797 picture; the man turned Royalist in his later days. So, in order to get anything like OTL, he's either dead - maybe by the Guillotine - or in exile.

Then maybe forget him. However, I would point out that people can be monarchists and still end up supporting a republic as a practical 'interim' measure...just one that never ends.

As for bonaparte, I'd say to forget him also. Italy was his first command ( not first major or first independent, first command, period ) and he needed to develop a reputation. Given the timeframe and his age, he can't have done this by early 1797; Not to mention that, by fructidor year V, he was establishing the Cisalpine republic ( by merging the Cispadane and transpadane republics ). Changing his mission may abort these republics ( originally, the army of Italy was not supposed to attack and no other general would have dared meddle with the political sphere that way ).

I think Bonaparte will be a respected general, and that's about it. Leave him on his mission...
 

Glen

Moderator
Don't know why this one petered out. I really would be interested to see a Directory Europe with all those interesting Republics in it and see how they develop over time....
 
Glen, an idea I had was for the Babouvistes (the Society of Equals led by François-Noël Babeuf) to seize power in early 1796 and institute a reformed, more compact directory as they planned. This would of course be fairly hard-line republican, purged of royalists and of Bonaparte. What do you think of that possibility? *[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 

Glen

Moderator
Glen, an idea I had was for the Babouvistes (the Society of Equals led by François-Noël Babeuf) to seize power in early 1796 and institute a reformed, more compact directory as they planned. This would of course be fairly hard-line republican, purged of royalists and of Bonaparte. What do you think of that possibility? *[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Possible, possible. Define purged....
 
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