1632/Ring of Fire series: Is Grantville having a net positive or net negative effect?

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Not to mention that Grantville has introduced ideas like "Genocide is bad" and "Don't be mean to Jews" and "Don't spread smallpox blankets to Native Americans"--not everybody may agree with those at first, but the idea of "murdering people over religion/skin color is bad" is at least circulating on a large scale with the backing of a significant portion of the population of a major world power.

Indeed.

The changes to the world map are likely to have serious effects on the future as well.

Well let's see... The Netherlands are now a monarchy that encompasses both the modern day Netherlands and Belgium, along with Luxembourg IIRC. That'll have some impacts for sure.

Oh, and let's not forget Japan settling the West Coast of North America...

 

[Neshomancer]

Well let's see... The Netherlands are now a monarchy that encompasses both the modern day Netherlands and Belgium, along with Luxembourg IIRC. That'll have some impacts for sure.

Oh, and let's not forget Japan settling the West Coast of North America...

Not to mention France buying England's North American colonies. The Union of Kalmar coming back, and in a couple generations the danish and Swedish thrones will essentially be united and they'll also be the monarch of the USE. The Austro-Hungarian Empire has replaced the HRE early. The USE is now sending ambassadors to the far east. Plus who knows what this current war is going to do to the Otomans by the time it's over.

 

[Orcot]

Well let's see... The Netherlands are now a monarchy that encompasses both the modern day Netherlands and Belgium, along with Luxembourg IIRC. That'll have some impacts for sure.

In witch book does this happen? I've only Read 1632,1633,1634the batlic war

 

[Neshomancer]

In witch book does this happen? I've only Read 1632,1633,1634the batlic war

It was set up in the Baltic War, and happened in the Bavarian Crisis.

 

[Orcot]

Sight going to order a new book

 

[Meshakhad]

Does anyone have an up to date timeline of the actual political developments?

Quick summary:

1631: Ring of Fire happens. Americans ally with Sweden. New United States forms.
1632: Swedish-American army crushes Wallenstein at the Battle of the Alte Veste. Confederated Principalities of Europe forms.
1633: Ostend War begins. Spanish, French, and English crush the Dutch fleet at the Battle of Dunkirk. Don Fernando of Spain overruns most of the Netherlands and besieges Amsterdam. All English possessions in the New World are transferred to France. Franco-Danish forces besiege Lubeck. Danish attack on Wismar repelled by Americans. CPE dissolves, is replaced by the United States of Europe (minus Saxony and Brandenburg). Bohemia revolts under Wallenstein, who becomes King Albrecht II of Bohmeia.
1634: Uptimers foil assassination attempt on Pope Urban VIII. USE Navy annihilates Danish Navy. Ostenders defeated at the Battle of Ahrensbok. Congress of Copenhagen ends the Ostend War. Denmark joins Sweden in the Union of Kalmar, with Prince Ulrik of Denmark betrothed to Princess Kristina of Sweden. Don Fernando declares himself King in the Low Countries and marries Maria Anna of Austria, and reaches an agreement with Prince Frederick Hendrick of the House of Orange. The Earl of Cork displaces the Earl of Strafford and becomes de facto ruler of England. Strafford and Bishop Laud flee to the Netherlands. Duke Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar establishes the County of Burgundy in the Franche-Comte.
1635: Following an election, Wilhelm Wettin (Crown Loyalist) replaces Mike Stearns (Fourth of July Party) as Prime Minister of the USE. Henry Dreeson is assassinated in the Dreeson Incident, which outgoing PM Stearns uses to crush organized anti-Semitism in the USE. Cardinal Borja, with Spanish support, invades Rome and deposes Urban, who flees with the support of the USE. Gustavus Adolphus invades Saxony and Brandenburg (with Major General Mike Stearns commanding the Third Division), and then invades Poland. Gustavus is incapacitated at the Battle of Lake Bledno. A joint USE-Danish-Dutch flotilla attacks Spanish holdings in the Caribbean. The Ottoman Empire retakes Baghdad from Persia.
1636: The Oxtenstierna Coup. Chancellor Axel Oxenstierna uses Gustavus Adolphus' infirmity as an opportunity for a counterrevolution. He deposes Wilhelm Wettin and sends General Johan Baner to crush Dresden, now under the control of Gretchen Richter and the Committees of Correspondence. Baner besieges Dresden, but his army is crushed by the USE Third Division and Mike Stearns. After Gustavus Adolphus recovers, he restores Wettin and executes Oxenstierna. Austria, Bohemia, and the USE form the Central European Treaty Organization (MEFO). The Fourth of July Party crushes the Crown Loyalists in an election, with Ed Piazza replacing Wettin as Prime Minister. The Ottoman Empire invades Austria and captures Vienna. Pope Urban VIII is assassinated in Besancon.
1637: Grand Hetman Stanislaw Koniecpolski is poisoned. Galicia revolts, and soon gains the support of the USE and Bohemia. King Albrecht II (Wallenstein) of Bohemia dies, and is succeeded by his infant son Karl Albrecht.

 

[Neshomancer]

Pope Urban VIII is assassinated in Besancon.

I guess the wiki isn't up to date, I didn't know that, which book is that in?

 

[Meshakhad]

I guess the wiki isn't up to date, I didn't know that, which book is that in?

1636: The Vatican Sanction.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I forgot, how did the Austrians come to become aligned with the USE again? I know how Grantville supported their old nemesis Wallenstein into establishing Bohemia. Are the Netherlands and Venetians also on good terms with Grantville?

There's also stuff going on off-Europe with Japan colonizing Monterey Bay with exile Christians, but that's more tangential and in Ring of Fire stories.

 

[Meshakhad]

I forgot, how did the Austrians come to become aligned with the USE again? I know how Grantville supported their old nemesis Wallenstein into establishing Bohemia. Are the Netherlands and Venetians also on good terms with Grantville?

There's also stuff going on off-Europe with Japan colonizing Monterey Bay with exile Christians, but that's more tangential and in Ring of Fire stories.

Ferdinand II dying helped a lot. There was also a USE trade delegation that salvaged the Austrian economy. The impending Ottoman invasion pretty much sealed the deal.

The Netherlands are on good terms with the USE (Grantville is no longer an independent entity - it's not even the capital of the State of Thuringia-Franconia). Venice is more distant, but trade is good.

I also completely forgot about Japan. And Russia's currently in a civil war.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Yeah, I was just using Grantville as shorthand, which... it really isn't.

afaik, the Safavids didn't do anything which is why the Ottomans trounced them, attempts to modernize/liberalize the Mughals are failing, and the Ming aren't doing anything?

 

[Meshakhad]

Yeah, I was just using Grantville as shorthand, which... it really isn't.

afaik, the Safavids didn't do anything which is why the Ottomans trounced them, attempts to modernize/liberalize the Mughals are failing, and the Ming aren't doing anything?

More that Murad got the jump on them. IOTL, the Ottomans retook Baghdad in 1638, so Murad decided to do it early, and used rockets and blimps. I haven't read Mission to the Mughals or the China one.

Meanwhile, the USE is planning to invade Lebanon in 1638, and get the Egyptians to revolt. I wouldn't be surprised if the invasion of Lebanon fails (if nothing else, I no longer take it as a given that Mike Stearns has plot armor), but I'm very much looking forward to John Simpson vs. The Entire Ottoman Navy.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I skimmed the China one. While I admire the amount of research they put into it, the writing is very weak. Far too many info-dumps. I give it a 5 for ambition and a 1 for the writing. Basically it's about an elaborate trade mission with the obligatory "uptimers decimate outlaws" scene.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

There's also stuff going on off-Europe with Japan colonizing Monterey Bay with exile Christians, but that's more tangential and in Ring of Fire stories.

I also completely forgot about Japan. And Russia's currently in a civil war.

...and the Ming aren't doing anything?

I haven't read Mission to the Mughals or the China one.

I skimmed the China one. While I admire the amount of research they put into it, the writing is very weak. Far too many info-dumps. I give it a 5 for ambition and a 1 for the writing. Basically it's about an elaborate trade mission with the obligatory "uptimers decimate outlaws" scene.

The Ming are moving slowly, but they seem to be moving...also, even if the central government aren't doing anything, that one Admiral who used to be a pirate is buying a tonne of up-timer guns and stuff. I think the Manchu conquest could be nipped in the bud still, or else mitigated somewhat.

I agree on the China one (and the Japan one - the writer's the same for them both). I like the idea, and how we see the Ring of Fire is having an effect elsewhere - and I like the fact that Asia isn't being left behind here. I mean, Japan's settling the West Coast of North America with Christian exiles, they've conquered half the Philippines which they're probably going to annex to the Home Islands, and they have up-time histories and at least a couple of sample firearms. I can see them becoming the major power in Asia shortly... I like this stuff, I like the fact that the writer knows his history and shows as much...but he's such a bad writer...

Meanwhile, the USE is planning to invade Lebanon in 1638, and get the Egyptians to revolt. I wouldn't be surprised if the invasion of Lebanon fails (if nothing else, I no longer take it as a given that Mike Stearns has plot armor), but I'm very much looking forward to John Simpson vs. The Entire Ottoman Navy.

I agree.

I can see the next while being basically a bit of a wake-up call/Icarus moment for the USE. I mean...the Ottoman Empire is The world superpower of this era. And with the tech they've been developing since the ring of fire, bringing them down is going to be a monumental task. Like I say, this could be the moment when Mike realises that (a) Not everyone wants American Freedom right now, and (b) American Freedom can't prevail short-term against a juggernaut like the Ottomans.

 

[Worffan101]

The Ming's problem and opportunity is that it's been roughly 60 years since the end of the disastrous reign of the Jiajing Emperor. That lecherous psychopath basically started the long slide into corrupt decay. Then Wanli started out OK, but collapsed in his later years and the corruption problem got even worse. Tianqi couldn't even read, the current Emperor is Chongzhen, who's facing multiple peasant uprisings since the 1620s rooted in the famines and economic collapse caused by environmental issues, and whose government is riddled with corruption and petty bickering.

...in all honesty, it might be better to back the Qing, help them replace the old bureaucracy en masse while up-teching, and call it a day. By the early 1630s, the Ming were a mess, much less 1636.

 

[Neshomancer]

Does anyone have up to date information on what's happening in France?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

...in all honesty, it might be better to back the Qing, help them replace the old bureaucracy en masse while up-teching, and call it a day. By the early 1630s, the Ming were a mess, much less 1636.

The cool thing about the Ming book is that it's essentially part 1 since the action is all south of the Yangtze, with part 2 is going to be in Beijing itself and perhaps we'll see the emperor. Not unlike the Mughal book except from an uptimer POV they're in a much better position, for some random reason Chongzhen saw some good omens and is being receptive towards them. The offer to sell uptimer-developed weapons to help against Li Zicheng bandits and frontier nomad invaders is being received, so I don't think they will entreat with the Qing... unless there's a future book that goes all the way to Manchuria? That'd be rad.

Narratively speaking, I foresee there's going to be an uptimer-installed new dynasty involving various characters they run into. It's more on-brand for the series to make their own thing that embodies uptimer values. Zheng Zhilong will likely play an important part, as the resident "enlightened downtimer" character.

I like this stuff, I like the fact that the writer knows his history and shows as much...but he's such a bad writer...

Ah, I see it is Iver Cooper. I think Flint or someone else on the project needs to help edit his stuff down from the infodumps and repeated exposition. I normally love first contact situations but his come off as stilted and unconvincing. However, I know it's really really hard because it's not only a first contact between uptimers and downtimers, it's also between Europeans and Chinese, which is another level removed from 1632.

I can see the next while being basically a bit of a wake-up call/Icarus moment for the USE. I mean...the Ottoman Empire is The world superpower of this era. And with the tech they've been developing since the ring of fire, bringing them down is going to be a monumental task. Like I say, this could be the moment when Mike realises that (a) Not everyone wants American Freedom right now, and (b) American Freedom can't prevail short-term against a juggernaut like the Ottomans.

The series could use some Axis of Time-type strategic setbacks to our heroes, without the same level of grim consequences. Looking at the wiki it seems like a bunch of their former enemies get overthrown and end up having to flee to the NUS, which seems a bit silly after a while. Like is Richelieu going to join them?! And Wentworth?

Speaking of Axis of Time, are there any storylines in Ring of Fire that didn't go anywhere? I remember a passage in 1633 where Don Francesco has fake books written about gold being found in the Everglades and such, to promote disinformation to their enemies- that whole idea was dropped, right?

 

[Polish Eagle]

Speaking of Axis of Time, are there any storylines in Ring of Fire that didn't go anywhere? I remember a passage in 1633 where Don Francesco has fake books written about gold being found in the Everglades and such, to promote disinformation to their enemies- that whole idea was dropped, right?

I don't recall it ever cropping up again, but that might just be that the Spaniards, who have been in Florida for a century at this point, just laughed and figured out the guy was compromised. Maybe a Spanish agent strangled him off-screen.

I confess I haven't read up on them since 1635: The Eastern Front. Last I heard, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is getting torn to shreds (Galicia up in arms and the Swedes and Germans rampaging through Silesia?). Muscovy is also in civil war. If the Ottomans are making a play for all of the Balkans+Central Europe, then maybe Murat can also try to lop Kamieniec-Podolski off Poland early (alternatively, bring them to his side--uptime books will leave the Poles with little regard for the Germans, Swedes, or Austrians, and the Americans' interference and alliance with the Swedes will sour them on the Yanks too).

 

[Meshakhad]

The series could use some Axis of Time-type strategic setbacks to our heroes, without the same level of grim consequences. Looking at the wiki it seems like a bunch of their former enemies get overthrown and end up having to flee to the NUS, which seems a bit silly after a while. Like is Richelieu going to join them?! And Wentworth?

Richelieu is MIA, presumed dead. He seems to have deliberately arranged that his death couldn't be confirmed, so people will always wonder if he's still out there. Which, to me, says that he's dead. Certainly his former enemy, Gaston, is not friendly to the USE.

Wentworth is in exile in the Habsburg Netherlands, not the USE. I doubt he'll play a role until England blows up.

But you are right that their smarter enemies often end up siding with them. Before long, MEFO will likely include not only the USE, Austria, and Bohemia, but the Netherlands and Burgundy. The reformist sides of the Russian, Polish, and soon English civil wars will all gain USE backing (they're already involved in Poland).

Leaving aside the possibility of further Ottoman victories, I think we might see a new big alliance form against the USE and its allies - the League of Ostend on a much larger scale, and this time under Ottoman leadership. The Volga Rules suggested that Sheremetev would offer the Russian throne to King Wladyslaw of Poland. Imagine if he did (creating a Russo-Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?), and then allied with both the Ottomans and Spain. Among other things, Ottoman naval strength (I predict that Murad has not neglected that area) might be enough to help Spain hold the Strait of Gibraltar against the USE.

Speaking of Axis of Time, are there any storylines in Ring of Fire that didn't go anywhere? I remember a passage in 1633 where Don Francesco has fake books written about gold being found in the Everglades and such, to promote disinformation to their enemies- that whole idea was dropped, right?

That one is the sort of thing that could easily be happening off-page. There's been little attention paid to the New World.

 

[Neshomancer]

Speaking of Axis of Time, are there any storylines in Ring of Fire that didn't go anywhere? I remember a passage in 1633 where Don Francesco has fake books written about gold being found in the Everglades and such, to promote disinformation to their enemies- that whole idea was dropped, right?

Just about everyone has copies of the real books, the forgeries were likely ineffective.