Really? I always though it was smaller, and extensive cattle grazing started off the modern expansion of the desert.JHPier said:
1492: The year a star fell on Earth
- Thread starter Condottiero
- Start date
[comicbookguy]Greatest Game EVER...Straha said:
After Final Fantasy VI.[/comicbookguy]
Hendryk
Banned
I just Googled "global warming" and "rising sea levels" and came across this website. But I'm sure there are even better maps out there.Condottiero said:
I was looking in particular for a map of East Asia, in order to determine how badly China would be hit in the event of rising sea levels. Apparently, with a 100 meter rise, the Yellow River basin would be gone, but the southern half of China would be more or less spared. I imagine that the Northerners would have time enough to relocate south, or perhaps try their luck in Manchuria.
My proposal for migrations:
* Spain & Portugal: little movements, people flee from coastal regions. In Portugal: Lisbon and Porto will be abandoned; in Castille: Seville, Cadiz, Alicante and Santander; in Aragon: Barcelone, Valencia and Palma. As most of the population lives in Castille in the central plateaus they will be affected only by plagues and refugees.
* France: the northern coast disappears, Paris lost. People will flee to the Central Mountains and to the Pyrenees. Serious problems as central power disappears and thousands of refugees arrive.
* England&Ireland: most of their territory will disappear. The English could flee to the lands near Scotland, France or even Spain. The Irish could flee to Spain.
* Flanders&Germany: the Netherlands disappear, all the north of Germany disappear. Hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding France (Walloons), southern Germany (Flemish and Saxons) and Austria. Collapse of all organized states there.
* Italy: Venice disappears, Naples and Rome also disappear. Population would concentrate in the mountains. The Holy See would have to move (to somewhere else in Patrimonium Petrii, Avignon, Santiago?).
* Scandinavia: Denmark disappears, population would flee to Skane and Norway. Sweden would lose important populated areas, but they could move easily to the interior. Norway quite safe. Coastal populations moving to the interior.
* Austria and Hungary: Austria is quite untouched, lots of refugees from Germany, pestilences and the possibility of annexing what is left of Germany. Hungary would be saved from the Ottomans (with their own problems) but they would have a new interior see that would move lots of inhabitants.
* Ottomans: no further expansion in Europe. Estambul and most of their coastal towns are lost. Problems in northern Africa as Cirenaica is now an island and Mesopotamia is now part of the persian gulf.
* Poland, Russia and Baltic nations. Chaos. Most of populated areas are now under the sea. Muscovy would be hegemonic.
What do you think?
* Spain & Portugal: little movements, people flee from coastal regions. In Portugal: Lisbon and Porto will be abandoned; in Castille: Seville, Cadiz, Alicante and Santander; in Aragon: Barcelone, Valencia and Palma. As most of the population lives in Castille in the central plateaus they will be affected only by plagues and refugees.
* France: the northern coast disappears, Paris lost. People will flee to the Central Mountains and to the Pyrenees. Serious problems as central power disappears and thousands of refugees arrive.
* England&Ireland: most of their territory will disappear. The English could flee to the lands near Scotland, France or even Spain. The Irish could flee to Spain.
* Flanders&Germany: the Netherlands disappear, all the north of Germany disappear. Hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding France (Walloons), southern Germany (Flemish and Saxons) and Austria. Collapse of all organized states there.
* Italy: Venice disappears, Naples and Rome also disappear. Population would concentrate in the mountains. The Holy See would have to move (to somewhere else in Patrimonium Petrii, Avignon, Santiago?).
* Scandinavia: Denmark disappears, population would flee to Skane and Norway. Sweden would lose important populated areas, but they could move easily to the interior. Norway quite safe. Coastal populations moving to the interior.
* Austria and Hungary: Austria is quite untouched, lots of refugees from Germany, pestilences and the possibility of annexing what is left of Germany. Hungary would be saved from the Ottomans (with their own problems) but they would have a new interior see that would move lots of inhabitants.
* Ottomans: no further expansion in Europe. Estambul and most of their coastal towns are lost. Problems in northern Africa as Cirenaica is now an island and Mesopotamia is now part of the persian gulf.
* Poland, Russia and Baltic nations. Chaos. Most of populated areas are now under the sea. Muscovy would be hegemonic.
What do you think?
theocrasies
besides the effects this would have on the earth it self, i can imagine that religion becomes alote more importand as this me be seen as a punichment of god [for what ever reason] and this might give in turn have a change in some/ most of the goverments changeing to theocrasies, maybe even an complete new super religion comming to power.
besides the effects this would have on the earth it self, i can imagine that religion becomes alote more importand as this me be seen as a punichment of god [for what ever reason] and this might give in turn have a change in some/ most of the goverments changeing to theocrasies, maybe even an complete new super religion comming to power.
Yes, you are fully right and it is a very interesting aspect. With Rome under the water Catholics would probably think it was time for a renewal, maybe we could have a reformation or even the Papacy moving somewhere else (as I hinted). But also the muslims would be affected, I do not know if Mecca would be covered by the waters, but the Ottomans losing Istambul under the waters could also think that Allah had abandoned them. The Hindis could feel the same after seeing Varanesi disappearing.
In Spain it could mix with the sense of being the Chosen Nation (a jewish legacy) as they would be quite untouched, just the half moorish cities of the south.
In Spain it could mix with the sense of being the Chosen Nation (a jewish legacy) as they would be quite untouched, just the half moorish cities of the south.
?what's hapened with this line? please continue. i supose austria will also anex hungary and the balkans. the turks will be weakened by the loss of lots of territories in africa and constantinople. in the west we could have independent bretagne, wales and scotland can conquer what is left of england. spain will take portugal and parts of france. ?what about milan? they will have coastal regions and the duke can take what is left of venize. ?what about an independent venetian nation in greece (morea, cyprus, crete and some islands)?
Portugal would loose most of their main cities under the water. We are in 1492 where can they flee? I do not think they would move to North Africa but to the interior.
They would be more vulnerable and with the policy of marriages of Isabel and Fernando they would merge with the rest of Spain.
They would be more vulnerable and with the policy of marriages of Isabel and Fernando they would merge with the rest of Spain.
But then why would Sweden loose Götaland to Denmark? That's basically what'd remain of Sweden. the way I'd see it Denmark would probably loose Skåne (Scania) to Sweden instead and the Danish kingdom turn into Norway. Also, why would Sweden lose Finland?Condottiero said:
My take on Sweden's situation would be for most people moving further inland and eventually up north where there aren't as many people already there. It would be a very very weakend central goverment with the destruction of the whole Eastern Svealand, but the local goverments would probably still keep on working fairly weel, Sweden wasn't exactly centralized at this point.
Some questions you guys may want to consider:
1a) Will there be a Nile River-Red Sea connection? Since the Ancient Egyptians built one long before the Romans came, I'd say yes. Would that somewhat strengthen the Ottomans somewhat?
1b) Will there be a sea connecting the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea? How would that affect trade in Central Asia?
2) When did the Dutch start building dykes? If it's before the event, then the Dutch engineers would be a well sought-out people as everyone wants to build dykes. But how high should the dykes be?
3) How high will the sea level rise? If it's 10 metres, low-lying areas would either flood or be barely intact with the help of dykes (which helps the Dutch...or whoever controls them). But if it's 100 metres, then that would be enough to cover the modern-day City of Vancouver, which is a fairly hilly place, and the coastal cities are certainly doomed.
4) If Europe were distracted by regional wars and the Americas were indeed 'abandoned', will the Natives of the Americas, especially in Mexico, learn their lesson and adopt muskets? Which nation will come out on top? This may make re-colonization unlikely in the future.
1a) Will there be a Nile River-Red Sea connection? Since the Ancient Egyptians built one long before the Romans came, I'd say yes. Would that somewhat strengthen the Ottomans somewhat?
1b) Will there be a sea connecting the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea? How would that affect trade in Central Asia?
2) When did the Dutch start building dykes? If it's before the event, then the Dutch engineers would be a well sought-out people as everyone wants to build dykes. But how high should the dykes be?
3) How high will the sea level rise? If it's 10 metres, low-lying areas would either flood or be barely intact with the help of dykes (which helps the Dutch...or whoever controls them). But if it's 100 metres, then that would be enough to cover the modern-day City of Vancouver, which is a fairly hilly place, and the coastal cities are certainly doomed.
4) If Europe were distracted by regional wars and the Americas were indeed 'abandoned', will the Natives of the Americas, especially in Mexico, learn their lesson and adopt muskets? Which nation will come out on top? This may make re-colonization unlikely in the future.
Good points. That's why I wanted your oppinions.Swede said:
Do you think Denmark would keep the name or just switch it to Norway? Would Sweden fragment? If so, which parts could I consider?
Would many englishmen flee to Norway-Denmark? I am working on a longer story about this and I was considering make the Irish to flee south to Spain, some English would follow them and some others would go to Norway
PoorBoy said:
1a. I'll think about it, and if it is so maybe we could have some conflicts between Ottomans, ex-Venetians and maybe Genoa (the Swiss would be quite exotic and tempting) because of the control of that strait. In the map I got it is not very clear, but it is a good idea.
1b. I'll consider it too, it could bring that region in closer contact with the Mediterranean and more power to the Ottomans or even the Austrians.
2. The sea level increase for this map is 300 feet, they could not stop the sea coming, but they would be very valuable skilled labour. My idea was to making them take shelter in Germany and being subjects to the Habsburg they would make them more powerful changing the HRE to the Austro-Burgundian Empire.
3. It's 100m and you're right. The cities marked in the map are doomed, except Rome that is 107m over sea level, but I discovered later.
4. Yes. We'll have surviving Aztec and Incan Empires, even possible Mayan, Carib or even Araucanian nations. The Europeans would be returning around the 1550s, led probably by the Spanish who would be very far to take advantage of the Suez strait and would try to see if they can reopen their way to the India by the west.
I suppose Panama would be also covered by the sea and opened to navigation...
PoorBoy said:
1a. I'll think about it, and if it is so maybe we could have some conflicts between Ottomans, ex-Venetians and maybe Genoa (the Swiss would be quite exotic and tempting) because of the control of that strait. In the map I got it is not very clear, but it is a good idea.
1b. I'll consider it too, it could bring that region in closer contact with the Mediterranean and more power to the Ottomans or even the Austrians.
2. The sea level increase for this map is 300 feet, they could not stop the sea coming, but they would be very valuable skilled labour. My idea was to making them take shelter in Germany and being subjects to the Habsburg they would make them more powerful changing the HRE to the Austro-Burgundian Empire. Maybe if I moved them to control Valachia...
3. It's 100m and you're right. The cities marked in the map are doomed, except Rome that is 107m over sea level, but I discovered later.
4. Yes. We'll have surviving Aztec and Incan Empires, even possible Mayan, Carib or even Araucanian nations. The Europeans would be returning around the 1550s, led probably by the Spanish who would be very far to take advantage of the Suez strait and would try to see if they can reopen their way to the India by the west.
I suppose Panama would be also covered by the sea and opened to navigation...
Condottiero said:
Considering that all that's left of Denmark is one low hill the namechange is very possible, if not likelly. Don't think Sweden would fragment - but some parts would be over-run by refugees from East Svealand for a few years which would precipitate a breakdown in order. After things return to a bit more normal the old kingdoms would re-assert themselves IMO. Plenty of refugees from Denmark would head for southern Sweden tho, not Norway (simply a closer escape-route). Since the languages were pretty much the same (OTL they are still mutually intelligble with some good will) there cultural diffrence isn't much to speak of so it could be that Sweden comes out of the whole ordeal without a population loss even with the loss of land and famines. Don't forget the Kalmar Union! it was still a going concern when this all starts happening, and even if the real problems come after the OTL breakup, the idea wouldn't be completely dead for a few years yet.Condottiero said:
If Sweden were to break up as a kingdom, the likelly borders would mostly follow the province boundries (bigger scale - 1. Götaland 2. Finland 3. Svealand+Norrland). But if Sweden breaks down, Den/Nor would jump in and gobble things up (Norway loosing much less land and thus being somewhat stabler).
Wikipedia has a surprisingly good section on the provinces and Lands of Sweden...
Sounds reasonable, and let's not forget Iceland - it could swallow a small pop boom probably.Condottiero said: