1453

You would be surprised at how effective a well-timed asteroid can be.



To be honest, I think the best chance for Byzantine survival is to have the Fourth Crusade go as planned. After that opportunities for any kind of survival become extremely limited.
of course this i agree with. Best POD is to prevent 4th crusade but what im saying is you shouldn't rule out that a POD after 4th crusade the byzantines could revive themselves;)
 
Aren't you guys forgetting that the Ottomans have a number of enemies that would smell blood and likely pounce on them like Hunyadi or Tepes?
 
Aren't you guys forgetting that the Ottomans have a number of enemies that would smell blood and likely pounce on them like Hunyadi or Tepes?

What can they do to destroy the Ottoman state or make up for the fact the Byzantine one has an army so small it wouldn't even make up the vanguard of the army in its days of glory?

The Ottomans will be back. And they will take the city the next time.
 
To sum it up:

Latest "Easy" POD: Before 1204.

Latest "Hard, but not entirely wanked" POD: 1340(before the Civil War).

Latest "Wanked to the extreme, but maybe sorta plausible" POD: 1402
You'd need to have Timur really smash the Ottomans a lot more, have a warrior emperor show up, maybe have a successful crusade take place, and have the stars align for Byzantium... and it could possibly survive in Greece as a minor statelet.

1453... there's nothing left, no enemies that could turn back the Ottomans, and even if, somehow, they were... the remnants would get nabbed by someone else anyway. The only curious possibility would be if the Ottoman Empire fragmented really terribly for some reason, and the Morea emerged as a petty state (probably under the influence of one or more Italian city-states). Constantinople is screwed, it's too much of a symbol, and too weak to survive.
 
What can they do to destroy the Ottoman state or make up for the fact the Byzantine one has an army so small it wouldn't even make up the vanguard of the army in its days of glory?

The Ottomans will be back. And they will take the city the next time.

Probably, but it might humilate the Ottomans since they got lost against a decaying corpse of a state, so others might sense weakness and try to steak territory from the Ottomans. I see this as a Winter War type scenario, that their defeat shows weakness, and their enemies decide to capitalize on that. Though the Ottomans getting attacked by a number of opportunistic states still doesn't bode well for Byzantium/Rome.

So you are right, but I think people are wanking the Ottomans too much, they had plenty of enemies who successfully held them off in this time period, like Albania which did quite well for itself.

edit:

That's a very good summary- someone should sticky this. :p

I concur.
 
Probably, but it might humilate the Ottomans since they got lost against a decaying corpse of a state, so others might sense weakness and try to steak territory from the Ottomans. I see this as a Winter War type scenario, that their defeat shows weakness, and their enemies decide to capitalize on that. Though the Ottomans getting attacked by a number of opportunistic states still doesn't bode well for Byzantium/Rome.

So you are right, but I think people are wanking the Ottomans too much, they had plenty of enemies who successfully held them off in this time period, like Albania which did quite well for itself.

Hungary and Wallachia holding them off longer than they did OTL is one thing, them making any difference at all to the Byzantines or to the Ottoman state is another.

Also, the only "lost" here is the Ottomans choosing to withdraw as the siege is taking too long and Asia Minor is being troublesome (a fear OTL) - a defeat in any other sense is as beyond the means of Constantine XI as an imperial recovery.

That's a very good summary- someone should sticky this. :p

Seconded.

"Could Constantine XI save the Empire?" needs to be treated as Sealion level insanity.
 
Hungary and Wallachia holding them off longer than they did OTL is one thing, them making any difference at all to the Byzantines or to the Ottoman state is another.

Also, the only "lost" here is the Ottomans choosing to withdraw as the siege is taking too long and Asia Minor is being troublesome (a fear OTL) - a defeat in any other sense is as beyond the means of Constantine XI as an imperial recovery.

Your right, but it probably would delay the Ottomans enough to cause enough changes for this history to be divergent from our own.

I have a question, if I am not mistaken, didn't the Ottomans prior to this prevent the Byzantines (I hate the term) from repairing the walls of Constantinople through threats of war? If so, couldn't they once attacked delay the inevitable for sometime by actually doing some repairs?
 
Your right, but it probably would delay the Ottomans enough to cause enough changes for this history to be divergent from our own.

Not significantly, I think, but yes. You could get butterflies from a failed siege meaning that the Ottomans face something in the other areas they tried to conquer that is more problematic than OTL, even if Constantinople being saved for a short while doesn't matter to the dying Roman state.

I have a question, if I am not mistaken, didn't the Ottomans prior to this prevent the Byzantines (I hate the term) from repairing the walls of Constantinople through threats of war? If so, couldn't they once attacked delay the inevitable for sometime by actually doing some repairs?

Even the Theodosian Walls are vulnerable to artillery.

You're not mistaken, but I don't think it would matter - the incident in question was sixty years ago, and the coffers are empty.

On the term Byzantine: I use it out of laziness. How do you feel about BG's term Rhomanian (the h for some linguistic reason and to make it distinct from Romanian as in the Romania that is not the ERE)?
 
Not significantly, I think, but yes. You could get butterflies from a failed siege meaning that the Ottomans face something in the other areas they tried to conquer that is more problematic than OTL, even if Constantinople being saved for a short while doesn't matter to the dying Roman state.

Thanks for answering my question.

I am correct in guessing that the Greek state that gets the greatest boost to its lifespan is something like Theodoro, and perhaps Bosnia and Albania are not converted nearly as much?

Even the Theodosian Walls are vulnerable to artillery.

You're not mistaken, but I don't think it would matter - the incident in question was sixty years ago, and the coffers are empty.

On the term Byzantine: I use it out of laziness. How do you feel about BG's term Rhomanian (the h for some linguistic reason and to make it distinct from Romanian as in the Romania that is not the ERE)?

Thanks for clearing that up, I need to brush up on my High Medieval and Renaissance history.

In regards to the use of Rhomanian I prefer it to Byzantine, it is more accurate, and I use it as often as I use Byzantine or Roman, but I prefer to use Roman and specify that I am refering to the late and the restored Roman Empire.
 
Thanks for answering my question.

I am correct in guessing that the Greek state that gets the greatest boost to its lifespan is something like Theodoro, and perhaps Bosnia and Albania are not converted nearly as much?

I think so. Possibly Trebizond depending on how exactly things go, but probably not.

A lot depends on how Hungary fares. A Hungary that is an overpowering presence might be a serious hindrance to the Ottomans even if unable to save Constantinople.

Thanks for clearing that up, I need to brush up on my High Medieval and Renaissance history.

No problem.

In regards to the use of Rhomanian I prefer it to Byzantine, it is more accurate, and I use it as often as I use Byzantine or Roman, but I prefer to use Roman and specify that I am refering to the late and the restored Roman Empire.

Makes sense.
 
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