1421 Ming China discovers America

Towelie

Banned
Honestly, if Spain could win against the Inca and conquer them, then the Chinese easily could. China was just as strong as the Europeans in the 15th century and in the 16th century too. The main issue with conquering Mesoamerica/Andes that neither empire had formed in 1421, so you'd be conquering a bunch of smaller states instead. And then you also have to ask "why send an expedition that far when they could just trade with the place instead", since the locals will have tons of interest in Chinese goods and will most gladly spend lots of their gold and silver on them. In fact, it would be a very good place for an overseas Chinese community to spring up at some point.

And yes, their diseases would be just as deadly.
Just curious, but what type of diseases would the Chinese bring? I'm not sure about the distribution of global diseases at the time. Likely, the Chinese bring back syphilis with them in such a scenario. Its also worth exploring the effect of the potato and tomato on Chinese agriculture, or if it wouldn't make much of a difference.

As for military issues, keep in mind that Pizarro's victory was almost completely ASB in OTL. That may not be the best metric to use. Cortes's slightly less ASB victory might be a better one. The Spanish had better firearms that the Chinese would not have in 1421 (even though they did develop a really cool gun that fired three shots at once and could be used as a mace), but more importantly, they had lance armed cavalry, rodeleros, and pikemen. These troops caused the Natives massive problems in the disparity of equipment used and the fact that a Spanish pike block supported by steel swordsmen in plate was basically an unfair fight against obsidian weapons. Chinese troops in 1421 had a quality in and of their quantity. The Ming famously kept a huge army staffed by a hereditary warrior class. Tactically, the army was mostly used on the Northern frontier and had a horse archer focus. Armies recruited in Southern China I believe had more of the levy spearwielding infantry formation focus of their ancestors, however. I'm not totally sure of how the Ming fought in wars at home or abroad outside of their campaigns against the Mongols. As for the troops on the large fleets sent abroad, I really have no idea how they fought. I'm not totally convinced that the Chinese could replicate the Spanish success, however.
 
Just curious, but what type of diseases would the Chinese bring? I'm not sure about the distribution of global diseases at the time. Likely, the Chinese bring back syphilis with them in such a scenario. Its also worth exploring the effect of the potato and tomato on Chinese agriculture, or if it wouldn't make much of a difference.

As for military issues, keep in mind that Pizarro's victory was almost completely ASB in OTL. That may not be the best metric to use. Cortes's slightly less ASB victory might be a better one. The Spanish had better firearms that the Chinese would not have in 1421 (even though they did develop a really cool gun that fired three shots at once and could be used as a mace), but more importantly, they had lance armed cavalry, rodeleros, and pikemen. These troops caused the Natives massive problems in the disparity of equipment used and the fact that a Spanish pike block supported by steel swordsmen in plate was basically an unfair fight against obsidian weapons. Chinese troops in 1421 had a quality in and of their quantity. The Ming famously kept a huge army staffed by a hereditary warrior class. Tactically, the army was mostly used on the Northern frontier and had a horse archer focus. Armies recruited in Southern China I believe had more of the levy spearwielding infantry formation focus of their ancestors, however. I'm not totally sure of how the Ming fought in wars at home or abroad outside of their campaigns against the Mongols. As for the troops on the large fleets sent abroad, I really have no idea how they fought. I'm not totally convinced that the Chinese could replicate the Spanish success, however.

They would bring exactly the same diseases Europeans brought. Maybe different strains, but strains that would be every bit as lethal.

Not sure about tomatoes, but potatoes were used in Chinese agriculture by the 19th century, especially in Manchuria. You'd be at best speeding up their introduction by maybe a century given probable resistance.

It really depends who is leading this expedition in the first place. I highly doubt this is going to be something directed by the Emperor (as the Aztec conquest was not directed by the King of Spain). Someone outfitting a few hundred soldiers, sailing all the way across the sea, and then disembarking to start attacking the place? Assuming they have the weaponry, horses, armour, and sheer luck, then I just don't see how they couldn't win if they can recruit enough native allies.

But it's really too far to launch an expedition like that without a base. Hence why you'd need a base somewhere in California, because no one's sailing all the way across the Pacific.
 

Guardian54

Banned
I can definitely see Hawaii being used for exotic pets (before the pigs and rats kill all the birds) and exotic fruits if it gets encountered...
 
I personally think there isn't any incentive for colonization, but let's assume that due to the personal antics of an individual Emperor--say, Yongle decides that going to America is a great thing to do.
Now, China honestly wasn't interested in colonizing the America's. Maybe spreading the tributary system, trading and letting all see the glory of the Emperor, but that's it. But over time (let's assume that unlike OTL, Yongle's successors decide exploration is great as well) as trade routes grow and Chinese influence expands, Wed see trading posts, but that's it. I don't see anything else other than small trading posts that
1. The Ming (aside from the Emperor) honestly could care less about
2. Are easily overrun
3. Aren't going to make the Ming stronger by much. In fact, the ludicrous amount of money needed to finance the project and built the treasure ships might cause later generations to see Yongle as a tyrant.
4. Are very much dependant on the whim of the Emperor,ggiven the extremely centralized nature of Ming China.
Not really--apart from Yongle and Zhu Yuanzhang,the emperors of the Ming Dynasty were more or less powerless without the consent of court officials.Any imperial edict's basically considered null and void unless it was drafted with the consent of the Grand Secretariat--and the Grand Secretariat's full of officials.

For anything in Ming China to succeed,you will need interest groups.
 
There is archaeological evidence that the Chinese Treasure Fleets did come to what is now the United States Pacific Northwest, actually. So on some level the Ming did discover America.
 

I am not sure if it was the Ming expressly. Let me see if I can find a thing on it, I remember reading about it, then of all evil places, History did a bit on it, but I disregard them as reliable.

Edit: My sincerest apologies, I seem to be wrong (big surprise there, it's a past-time). Back to your regularly scheduled Eurosupremacy.
 
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I can definitely see Hawaii being used for exotic pets (before the pigs and rats kill all the birds) and exotic fruits if it gets encountered...

What exotic pets and fruit? I thought the pigs and rats killed all the exotic birds already? And which fruits in Hawaii might the Chinese might find a taste for? Breadfruit I guess, but wasn't that already known to the Chinese?

As I mentioned in this thread a few months, a major thing they'd get out of Hawaii and the Americas as a whole is Chinese traditional medicine ingredients.

There is archaeological evidence that the Chinese Treasure Fleets did come to what is now the United States Pacific Northwest, actually. So on some level the Ming did discover America.

No Chinese Treasure Fleets, but...

There is evidence of Asians in the Northwest in pre-Columbian times, but that's extrapolating accounts of Chinese and Japanese fishermen washing up on those coasts (dead or alive), along with oddities like the Tlingit using Chinese coins at an early date (18th century I believe). To say no Chinese or Japanese set foot on the West Coast before Columbus has to be wrong, although we can certainly say that none of those people ever made it back alive. Perhaps one day we'll find genetic evidence (likely from an American Indian skeleton) or material evidence (Asian objects found in the region)--I'm confident it exists, but there's such a huge amount of land to scour, so much human remains to dig up (and test, and good luck doing that), that it's unlikely anything would ever be found. It's much like the controversy over when the Americas were settled by humans, really--there's major discoveries out there waiting to be found, but until we've found them, we can basically shrug and say "probably, but we don't really know".
 
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